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livemesh
May 19, 2013 at 6:05 pm
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livemesh
May 19, 2013 at 6:27 pm
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This hoodie gets me lots of looks while out in public, I got the blue one and it’s awesome. Not sure if people are looking at my hoodie only, or also at my rocking bod.
Your comments about hearing damage and Rick Larson’s unsupportive position are spot on. I too have sustained hearing damage.
Recently an old WSU student friend sent me this e-mail prior to the June 19th Coupeville meeting: “Ken, keep me updated re the meeting tomorrow to solve that health damaging naval air jet noise. Horrible to live under a bureaucracy which claims to defend our liberties while it massively takes it away both monetarily and health wise.” Cheers. S. (Sig Sutterlin, Ph.D., Senior Fulbright Scholar in Comparative Economics, Ottumwa, IA.)
I’m very curious to know the details. Would it be possible to post a transcript of the actual announcement of suspension? This action of course raises a whole new set of questions, i.e.: if it has been this easy to suspend operations all along, why now and not sooner? If flight training is as critical as claimed, what will the young pilots do during this suspension? If it turns out not to have been as critical as claimed all these years, it seems the Navy’s case falls rather short. It is a bit concerning to me that if the waving of an officer’s pen can suspend operations, it can presumably just as arbitrarily resume those operations. I can see two reasons for this action: 1. its hard to measure and/or document what is not happening and 2. a (vain) hope that people will forget just how bad it is when its happening, and the pressure for change will dissipate. And lastly, I would like to see a new sign near OLF which says “the REAL sound of freedom.” Indeed, lets all enjoy it as long as it lasts, and work to make it permanent.
Maryon, we who would sleep before 1 a.m. in Port Townsend, salute you! How nice and quiet the past few nights. Glad to see Ken Pickard on board–and that the work we did as WISE members (Whidbey Islanders for a Sound Environment) years back, is now successfully carried forward. This time, as you say, momentum must be carried forward, difficult though it may be, until OLF is shut down and restored to native prairie.
I would like to point out that despite the pending litigation with the US Navy over flight operations at OLF, it was not the suit that brought about a temporary stoppage. As outlined in the proposed budget cutbacks due to the sequester, the Navy is to suspend all off-base flight training to conserve on fuel usage. This was signed into effect well before the lawsuit was filed.
The PBY was purchased and transported by the members of the PBYMF with no federal tax dollars. The building used is on the historical register and since it was unoccupied prior to the PBYgroup moving in, the occupancy kept the building from being razed. The PBY group pays the utilities. The museum is not off limits to civilians. One needs only to go through the Torpedo Road Gate, tell the guard where you are going and you may proceed.
Thank you for your information. A few months ago I had some free time and decided to check out the PBY museum that had been advertised in the newspaper. I was stopped at the gate by the sentry. He asked for my military ID, which I don’t have at which time he tersely demanded my driver license, took it, instructed me to proceed a short distance, make a U-turn, and that he would return my driver license as I left. It was a terse exchange of words that didn’t inquire about my intended destination.
For us non-military citizens it has become a mystery about way the Seaplane base has been on and off limits for civilian travel. I just did what I was told to do, and left. It pretty much ended my interest in the museum. How would you feel?
I am not anti-military as some have characterized in their responses. We just think that there is a lot of unsaid things that need to be said in the face of all that is being said suggesting that we civilians are a bunch of freeloaders at the expense of the Navy’s presence.
Yes, a lot of our information comes from scuttlebutt and reading our newspapers, but that’s what most of us have available and form or opinions on. Did you check out the link to the video on the military housing scandal? Do that. We know a lady whose son worked on that project here in Oak Harbor but quit out of disgust because of the crummy management, lousy craftsmanship, and substandard materials. We heard from a household mover employee how moving people into some of the units required scavenging items from other units to make them livable for the new tenants.
I don’t think that anything I wrote is not true. My comments were not directed at individuals, it was at the management level. If nothing else, I hope my comments will stir up some conversation that would clear up and perhaps correct these grievances, which your response tends to do. Our county functions are hurting and deserve better than they are getting. Much of the same can be said for property tax payers.
Both of my parents are retired Navy. A lot of Navy workers don’t live on base (we never did), which mean a lot of Navy families pay property taxes. Yeah, we shop at the Comissary and the Navy Exchange but we also shop at Safeway and Walmart & all the stores off base too just as much, if not more. Stop acting like Navy families don’t contribute to taxes because we do.
In the three years I was stationed at NAS Whidbey I can tell you for certain that I lived off base in private, non-military housing. I can count the number of times I used the Commissary on my two hands as I preferred Safeway. I ate at all the local restaurants, not at the base galley. And I also participated in community events such as Relay For Life. Now I am sure that there are some things that you can gripe about that are legitimate. But these things are not among them. The everyday sailors don’t make policy. We contribute to the community. And I would go as far as to say that perhaps you would have more military participation in the communities if those military families actually felt welcome in them. In all honesty, I was truly disappointed to discover such a military unfriendly town as Oak Harbor. And that goes for all people in Oak Harbor; rich, poor, young, old. All of you make the sailors there feel unwelcome. So perhaps one day the Navy will grant your wish and close down NAS Whidbey Island. It would be interesting to see what the effects on the town of Oak Harbor would be. But as far as I’m concerned you can keep your unfriendly town.
The Ebey’s Reserve community is based in and around Coupeville, not Oak Harbor. It is unfortunate you feel strong negative emotions against the Oak Harbor community, which is, in fact, very military friendly. Some Coupeville community members have made their enmity toward the military known but I have found that Oak Harbor has been supportive, demonstrably so, of the military members, families and mission. Please do not consider Mr. Williams’ opinion as that of the Oak Harbor community. Coupeville and Oak Harbor are two separate towns on Whidbey Island (as Coupeville community members take great pains to make clear). I agree with you, however, regarding the tone of Mr. Williams’ letter; it appears he wishes to have the base closed and all military presence removed. As well, when someone with a vitriolic perspective views events and actions (“perpetrated” by military members and “the Navy Base”) he only sees ugly and negative. The military is composed of PEOPLE. And you were so right that these folks don’t create policy and that they contribute because they do! As a property owner in Oak Harbor, I definitely pay taxes and support our schools. AND I am a proud military member. PROUD to serve, Mr. Williams.
Al Williams
August 4, 2013 at 11:29 pm
Dear ZMR78. I was just a humble interstate trucker. But I spent six years in the early 80’s as a household mover moving many military families all over this nation. For the next 18 years I hauled material including military vehicles, jet engines, and even classified stuff for our nation’s State Department. I’ve probably been on more military bases than the average career veteran including NASWI. I too served and didn’t make any more of a fortune doing it than your average GI. But I felt like I was contributing to our nation’s needs, made friends, earned a good reputation, and enjoyed doing it. Somehow that comes across as important as what makes you so proud.
There is something appropriate to your remarks that I failed to mention in my original letter or reply to Mr. schoonover. My wife and I are members of our local Power Squadron. The PS is a social and educational organization that promotes boating safety by presenting instructional classes in Rules on the Water, Seamanship, Marine Communications and Electronics, Engine maintenance, and nearly every subject important to safe boating including qualifications for state boating licenses. We are similar to the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary. Many of our members are Navy veterans. No one would call us unpatriotic, sinister, devious, or threatening. Our classes are held wherever we can find adequate and convenient facilities at the lowest cost such as after hours at schools and colleges, churches, public buildings, private homes and garages, and even old warehouses.
Last year some of our courses were being taught at the Seaplane base, that is until our non-veteran students were suddenly and unceremoniously denied access to the base and unable to complete their course. Instructors had to find other facilities and fortunately a local church came to the rescue. We were being treated like enemy.
So Mr./Mrs. ZRA, the shoe is on the other foot and our Navy whom our taxes support is as unfriendly as anyone you complain of.
ZRA
August 27, 2013 at 3:20 am
I do not know, for sure why they were denied access… other than there were rumors of vandalism and shoplifting at the NEX. That is why they began checking IDs at the gates. Not because they were simply being unfriendly. But, I am also not defending this. I think you should have been allowed to at least finish your courses. But two wrongs don’t make a right either.
Al Williams
August 29, 2013 at 3:51 pm
Thank you for your thoughts. Retired Navy people in the squadron looked into the matter and found that the decision came from higher than they had access to or ability to challenge. Our instructors did some hunting and found a church that would let them use their classrooms. This was a year or so ago now. We just decided to roll with the punches but it sure leaves a sour taste on your mouth when you realize that it is our own Navy who for years had the Seaplane Base entirely open to the public and now had either become insanely paranoid or just plain mean and nasty.
Previous commentors corrected some of Al’s misconceptions. I’ll correct some others. I work across the street from the base hospital and get most of my health care there, so I can assure you it hasn’t been closed. I’m a Navy retiree and I’ve been a civil service employee of the Navy for nearly 14 years. Just like all of my local retired Navy friends, I’m a homeowner who pays property taxes and does plenty of shopping off-base. Incidentally, the base skeet range Mr. Williams mentioned has been closed for 10 years or more. I love being an Oak Harbor resident, jet noise and all.
Well I am a Navy Veteran, and I pay property taxes.. I did live in housing for a while, but for the most part, I rented and then purchased property… I do vote in Island County elections, but only as I am a Washington State and Island County Resident…would you deny me my right to vote? Not all Military personnel stationed here can vote here, you have to be a resident and most do not change there residency to there duty station. Yes my children did attend school here, put there was a subsidy that was given to the County and city to accommodate the higher influx of children that being a Navy town brings. I shop out in town, quite frequently, I am not hopping from bar to bar as this stereotyping individual would have you believe… I know several people who are not and have not been in the military that work on base. I am person who spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local schools, in the help house, the boys and girls club and Relay For Life Etc!! Your insinuation that we are the leeches of the communicating is appalling. I give a lot of myself to this community, because I live here, I work here, and I support my community!!!
Navy Veteran
Homeowner
School Volunteer
Relay For Life Team Captain
Help House supporter
Boys and Girls Club Supporter
Disaster Relief Organizer
Drug Education For Youth Mentor
As a brief reminder, it should be said that opinion letters posted on this blog are the thoughts of the person who wrote the opinion. Letters such as this are included as food for thought, and do not necessarily represent the opinions or beliefs of the CoER and its many individual members, who do not as a group pre-select blog content. In fact, given the nature of spirited debate within this diverse group, it is likely that no such letter could possibly represent all of CoER. Therefore, it is perfectly fine to disagree with someone’s posted letter, but we would caution against interpreting it as CoER opinion unless it is indicated to be so by members of the board.
By the way Mr. Williams, you can live tax free as well in military housing now since it is open to everyone. Enjoy. I will remain in Coupeville where I enjoy living off base and love that jet noise! You can count yourself lucky that my husband is defending the freedom of people such as yourself who don’t appreciate it AT ALL!
Since my original letter was removed, let me reinsert the link to the story developed by former P.I. Reporter Eric Nalder who investigated the Military Housing Project scandal that you are talking so highly about. It is a 25 minute presentation well worth your thoughtful consideration. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12192008/watch3.html
Then too, here’s a link to a letter to the editor of the Whidbey News-Times from a military person living in that project.http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/opinion/letters/22237539.html
Check these out and think it over.
Why not build an OLF on one of the islands out in the Sound? That shouldn’t be difficult or much more expensive than the money they’ve spent on things like the concrete barrier for a walkway no one uses such as on Ault Field Road between Oak Harbor and Goldie Roads. A look at Google Earth shows an island north of Whidbey with an airstrip. Then only the Orca’s and octopi would be complaining.
It is a fact that all your readers will not agree on all topics. I consider Al Williams unpublished letter a gem containing valuable insight. It is to the benefit of Whidbey Island residents to be aware of malfeasance committed by our government. Sweeping it under the rug will not lead to solutions. Readers have the option to dispute any issues they find objectionable. While it is just my opinion I would like to see Mr. Williams letter posted for everyone to read.
The reason the letter has been removed is that it is off topic for the goals of the Citizens of the Ebey’s Reserve. It deals more with the Navy itself, the presence of the base in Oak Harbor, and so forth. CoER, as a group, is only dedicated toward the closure of the OLF. Its individual members will certainly disagree with each other on other topics concerning the Navy, and therefore it is best for us not to post a letter that might mislead the public as to the group’s purpose or the opinions of its members. We have no intent to discredit the letter, its writer, or its detractors, and thus we apologize to all concerned for any inconvenience.
Al Williams
August 11, 2013 at 7:43 am
Airport noise has historically been a contested issue when civilian population grows around them. On a national level, the trend has been that residential civilian interests eventually win and airports have had to mitigate the noise or move to more remote and rural locations. It happened in Denver many years ago, Los Angeles had the same problems and had to come up with mitigation strategies that I think included the purchase of land around the airport. Most military airports have been located in desert areas that are sparsely populated with people who benefit from their presence such as China Lake in California or Fallon, Nevada. That ameliorates the complaints. Even the base at Fallon is located miles from that small town. Due to the much greater noise that some smaller fighter type military planes emit, these planes are usually sequestered at these remote bases.
Certainly this problem is not one the military does not anticipate and know will require mitigating measures on their part. I would think that if you want support for you efforts at OLF, you would likely find the local real estate business community to be a strong ally.
The noise of a Growler taking off is enough to startle elderly drivers or anyone not expecting it, and cause accidents on nearby roads and Hwy 20.
Why not build an OLF on one of the many small islands out in the Sound or Salish Sea? But then I suppose that would end up with deaf or dead Orcas and two-headed salmon. How about over the hills out away from Yakima where it could melt the sand and kill rattlesnakes?
The Navy sure has spent a lot more money more frivolously than for something like this that will benefit the citizenry they claim to serve.
Aircraft models and their noise levels change from time to time and have to be reckoned with. Other airport have had to make adjustments for civilian and residential development even when the developments came later in time. Does it make sense to harm those you claim to protect?
As such I’m open to an EIS discussing the following alternatives:
a) No Action
b) Eminent Domain of 2 NM around OLF Coupeville
c) A third runway at NAS Whidbey Island
d) A new OLF either at the Yakima Firing Range or the Hanford Nuclear Reservation where the Growlers would have to land, refuel to get to the right fuel weight to practice carrier landings (they can’t do so with a full load), do their practices, then ‘come home to us’.
e) Turning Skagit Regional into OLF Joe Kunzler for my entertainment.
I think most people who know the issues would agree we need to get to the truth of the matter.
Al Williams
August 22, 2013 at 7:31 pm
Thanks for the complimentary assumption, Mr. Joe Kunzler, but I have no authority to make any changes. Do you? If you have authority to negotiate for the Navy, it is probably best for you to contact the attorney for the CoER group, Barbara Lichman, Ph.D. 949 224-6292 or blichman@buchalter.com. Moreover, my wife and I don’t live all that close to the OLF to be affected like those who do. I only wrote from my experience having one of the growlers zoom overhead as I was entering one of the turns of Hwy. 20 where it goes around the field. It was my first up close experience with the Growler sound and it was jarring to say the least. I’m glad there wasn’t a car coming at me from the opposite direction at that moment when my attention was toward the sky to see what the Sam Hill was happening. I thought something had exploded over our heads. I’d expect a driver coming from the other direction would be as hazardously affected. So there, I’ve said the least. I’ll let others say the most.
I have the perfect win win solution. I think the Navy, USAF and US Army should establish a joint Detachment at the Outlying field in Coupeville. They can assign 10-20 Predator drones there. Build a couple of hangers and maintenance facilities, some billiting for personell. The added infrastructure will provide employment for construction and upkeep, the added personell will provide revenue and taxes to Coupeville. The Predators are very quiet compared to Growlers so the noise issue will than be negligable. Perfect solution for both the Navy and Coupeville!!
Our problem is forgetting that the military is not a democratic organization. It is autocratic, and all too frequently devolves into arbitrary capriciousness. They deal constantly with young inexperienced kids so much that they become like them. The whole concept of democracy gets put into the far recesses of their minds and gets replaced with adversarial competitiveness where rank becomes the only value they recognize. By the time one fights their way up the system to gain a commanding rank, they are quite apt to become rank themselves.
Astute observations. It’s pretty sad to find out that our Navy would deceive, break rules, and lie to us. I wonder what our school teachers who taught us to believe in our government would say.
I would like to know where you got statistics to prove that the Growlers are louder than the previous aircraft flying out of NASWI and the statistics/studies that prove that operations have increased by 300%. You throw out these numbers with no qualifying source.
Barbara,
Please read the “JGL” Noise report on the “links” page. Everything you need is there, if your questions aren’t answered there, the answers will be in the complaint that was filed. If you still have questions, please contact us again, as answers to your questions are asked by many people, and we want your questions answered to your satisfaction.
Regards
COER
Thank you Maryon for putting forth your opinion and presenting your facts in such a clear way. Most people with homes under the flight path, people that are really suffering from the physically dangerous noise that is so much worse now, are very hesitant to speak out. Most of my neighbors are scared of the hostility that is aimed at anyone suggesting anything that might affect the economy of this area, even if the suggestion is that the Navy do a study and act on it based on their own rules. I hope both sides of this issue can move through the process of discovery and decision-making in an effective way.
Just returned to Florida after my annual visit to Coupeville. I can’t tell you how wonderful my stay was without the jets flying. Keep up the good work.
This has got to be humiliating for the local news media that it’s up to CER to breach a paywall of a defense publication to tell us the timeline of the Navy’s EA-18G EIS.
At least I’m humble enough to credit CER at every turn on this one. Thank you!
People at the top of the hill in Admiral’s Cove may as well live on the deck of an aircraft carrier, with exposure to a 134 dBA sound level. The level was professionally measured by a sound technician recently, but apparently never measured by the Navy. Their “measurement” was to simply declare that the Growlers would be quieter than the Prowlers.
Defense personnel are well protected by the Military. The Department of Defense issued standards for their own personnel. The report is at http://www.hf.faa.gov/docs/milstd1474doc.pdf. On page 66, it forbids personnel from being exposed to 115dBA without protection at any time, and provides them with excellent gear. They cannot be exposed to 145 dB at all, regardless of protection. Think of kids walking in the neighborhood, people riding bikes, babies napping, people unable to take cover On a carrier, there are work shifts and rotation of duties. They are probably not “on deck” as much as we are. Our lives are long. Their careers have limited duration.
People say that people who bought homes in the zone only have themselves to blame, although many were not warned at all. But who would have ever expected our military to expose us to real danger and misery this extreme? Buy a 115 dB air horn (the loudest on the market, requiring permission to purchase it) and see how often you want to turn it on.
The Growlers have now all been moved here, and they want to bring 135 more. How loud will the NEXT generation of Navy Jets be? They keep getting louder, and they already do physical damage. Who is going to draw the line? Many with financial incentives mask themselves with patriotism and harass those why want to try.
Lets get an accurate measure of the impact of these planes and take appropriate measures to ensure that pilots get safely trained and that citizens are protected.
“Lets get an accurate measure of the impact of these planes and take appropriate measures to ensure that pilots get safely trained and that citizens are protected.”
If that means buying out the 100+ dB area, sure. Let’s do it.
I was on the base today about 4:30. I was there for about 20 minutes and not one jet landed or took off during that time.
We need to talk to someone in air traffic control to get their opinion of the impact of carrier landing practice at Alt Field. I’ve been stationed on AF bases where the traffic was much higher than at Alt Field.
I don’t think anyone wants the Navy to leave Whidbey Island. But you make a good case about the OLF.
Beside China Lake, alternate operational OLF sites would include Fallon, Nevada and Lemoore, California. How about the military training grounds just over the hills toward Yakima? The argument that they are too far because an OLF must be close to the home base because of limited fuel requirements during “critical” landing operations sounds like a “red herring” because these bases have fueling and defueling facilities. As for so-called high cost for correcting landing and takeoff hazards, a few years ago the Navy chipped in $777,000 allegedly to mitigate flight hazards to just one property questionably affected by landing flight path issues. (http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/18223339.html) Then there are safety factors concerning hwy. 20 where it curves around OLF. The noise from an F18 is more distracting than a cell phone in a driver’s ear.
Then too, some folks remember when the Navy offered to sell the OLF to the county for $1 and had no takers. Anyone interested? How about that sonic boom that rattled the Oak Harbor area a few days ago that the Navy disallows responsibility for? Anyone believe it was caused by a high school kid’s hot rod with wings? Maybe it was a passing elephant with a bad case of flatulence. There seems to be a credibility issue as big as all outdoors.
All information is on our links pages.
Please feel free to study them and understand where our information is from.
The meaning of the word “perception” is easily found by yourself in most good dictionaries.
If you have further questions, feel free to ask.
Regards
Thank you sir for being so rational. The only idea that I have trouble getting around is the continued use of the OLF as an airport. It is still and increasingly surrounded by homes and we do have a domestic airport location in Oak Harbor just across from the OLF. The addition of the OLF as another domestic airport would just add to the already over-whelming noise from Ault field and the existing domestic airport. Thank you for your support…it is heartening to know that there is still a sign of intelligence on Whidbey Island.
Thank you for this detailed information. I live under the planes in Oak Harbor. I bought my house in 1982, before a noise disclosure form was required, so I had never seen one before. For some time I have been reading and posting comments on the comments blogs in the Whidbey News-Times. I have been subjected to the kind of verbal abuse you describe. I have been called a liar, a hypocrite, a troll, a whiner, and stupid. I have been taunted and sneered at and told that my deafness, after living under the planes, is probably due to old age, but is certainly not due to jet noise because jet noise does not cause deafness. Yesterday Joe Kunzler told me to take my no-fly zone and shove it.
COER has been called a hate group and a terrorist-extremist group. Ken Pickard has been heaped with abuse since before the Janis Reid inverview with him came out, but the abuse of him and of COER has intensified since the interview was published. Since Paula’s letter and Keven’s editorial answer to Paula’s letter (plus additional COER bashing from Keven about the paid ad), it has got even worse. And now Growler Joe is crowing that COER is on the run with the help of the WN-T, and he is hatching ways to punish anti-OLF people with boycotts and threats of publishing names, addresses, and e-mail addresses, the implication being that this would invite harassment of us all from the crazies.
I hope some of you will write letters to the editor quoting the disclosure form says to show how inadequate it is as a warning. The 75+ equalling 134 db would be understandable to anyone who has ever been fooled by a deceptive guarantee. The COER ad is a clear and excellent statement of COER’s one and only goal, but I’m wondering how many people even read it, given Keven’s undermining of it in the editorial that ran in the same issue as the ad.
North Whidbey high schools alone(Oak Harbor and Coupeville)graduate about 400 students each year. How many of these students are likely to be able to find employment at the Navy Base? Not many, if any. What other employment opportunities are there for all these new faces in the unemployment line? For those who don’t go on to college, that’s probably a couple hundred or so who have no prospects of a future here. It’s no wonder we have such a sorry drug and delinquency problem. But that’s the typical fate of a bedroom community, especially one with so many who care about environmental issues not anxious to have the industrial revolution making war on this once pristine turf. We could be propagating ourselves out of a place at the dinner table.
Hey Joe. What gives you any right to insert yourself into this discussion? We don’t come to Sedro W and tell you folks how to run your affairs. Get back in your bus and leave us alone. Not your business.
I bought in the Bon Air/Ledgewood area in Spring 2012. I suppose I signed that disclosure but because it was so
vague, it did not sink into my brain how really bad the jet noise would be. Neighbors with whom I talked (before purchased)
said, oh yeah, the jets come over ever so often – but its nothing….Well, four or five nights a week, for hours on end, beginning
at 10PM and going on into the night until about 1 or 1:30 am. — is unbearable. What an injustice, but geez, we in the U.S.
should be used to that by now….lied to about everything, we are.
I came out of a very unexpected marital breakup, an auto accident, and a move from a rental that I had expected to live in
for at least two years; had been looking for a house to buy for nearly 9 months – and found this one that I could afford (but
that needed major work)….if I was depressed when I moved after all the emotional turmoil in my personal life, I have certainly
been depressed in the time I have lived – and listened to – this horrible, extremely loud jet noise. God help those whose life
and country that they fly over and bomb. When will we ever learn? When will we ever learn?
No one who has been under the jets near the runway for two hours would be surprised. People living there know they are in trouble. They don’t need a study.
Joe, this is a little different from what you said in the WN-T comments to Janis Reid’s story of Sept. 6, “Navy will conduct study on jet noise at Outlying Field.”
On Sept. 8 at 11:54 a.m. Truman Lowry wrote: “I bet all these people that have been asking for an EIS will wind up gripping [sic] that it is taking too long when it stretches out to 3 to 5 years to complete, which is average for an EIS.”
You replied on Sept. 8 at 1:40 p.m. “Truman, at the risk of being a fool and spewing strategy, my support of an EIS is in part to wear them down for 3 to 5 years so buying them out becomes the star option.”
If COER agrees to “tolerate the training,” maybe that will “wear them down”?
This is really good firsthand information, and I would like to see it in letters to the editor in the local papers. It would need to be condensed to 300 words, but the main points could fit into that word limit.
It’s being done to educate the general population on the life threatening harmful consequences of jet noise. This education must be done before the scoping process so the questions the public asks during scoping are informed ones.
The navy, of course, prefers a public without this knowledge.
It IS a shame that someone who has important information to give the community is afraid to sign his or her name to this information for fear of reprisal. What kind of reprisal? Boycotting a business, or something else? Has there been any violence against people who advocate closing OLF Coupeville except for the sparkler bomb thrown in Becky Spraitzar’s yard and the vandalism to her sign?
Ann,
Yes, many of have gotten phone calls in the middle of the night, other harassing measures. This is what is the shame. Either side doing this is just not right.I have no idea who is doing this, as BOTH sides claim their angel-hood, that they are blameless of everything. Can’t figure out who this can be then.
Joe two miles doesn’t do it. I live about 5 miles away, but in the path they use coming and going. It’s several magnitudes louder than the EA6s.
BTW, you really have no horse in this race. It ‘s just as easy for you to go somewhere else to take your tail number pictures. We, on the other hand, live here. MYOB.
Joe,
You VISIT the jets. They are your play thing. WE LIVE WITH THE JETS!
Big difference!
How do do dare to tell us what our life is like when they fly!
Joe, do you know what it is to live in a community with deep roots and history, not to mention a National Historic Reserve? Please be more thoughtful in your support of jets. There are many safe places to touch and go, no other place like ours.
Joe,
Are all your petition signers more important than even one child who goes deaf from the noise? Who is afraid to go to sleep because of nightmares from the jets. Would you want a crash into Admirals Cove on your shoulders? The death of a child is less important than your OLF? School children unable to learn due to jet noise aren’t more important? Where are your priorities?
How about the jets practice elsewhere until this is resolved?
citizensofthereserve
October 30, 2013 at 5:13 pm
Joe,
“How about we just cap OLF…..” We who?
If you had any say with the navy, negotiation might be reasonable. You do not tell the navy what to do. Neither do we. So, you, or us, negotiating is useless. In the court of law there is negotiating, not on a blog or the Whidbey papers. What deal can you deliver? Tell me what you can actually deliver, then we will negotiate.
citizensofthereserve
October 30, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Joe,
I said “what can you deliver?” “Lobbying to put polite pressure?” Kinda like, sir, if you please, if it wouldn’t trouble you, would you mind stopping killing my friends? I hate to be pushy, so if you really want to still drive our people deaf as well as crazy, that’s OK. But, if……..
Nope, the troops are having no problem training now. They can train carrier landing practice at Lemore or in the Idaho/Utah training ground. As someone else pointed out we live here and you only visit to take your pictures. Again, not your business.
Joe and just so you know the 4000 “patriots” who signed your petition were not the only Patriots on Whidbey. We take offense at your insinuation that those with opposing views are up patriotic. In my case, I am a retired USAF officer, so don’t assume you know how we feel or what our politics are.
Well, Joe,
I find it patriotic to support the health, safety and well being of our entire human race. That does include the military as well as civilians. I do not find it patriotic to support the military over the safety of our children and adults. I do not find it patriotic for the military to endanger civilians. The Coupeville OLF is not necessary for the safety of the military. The military has been able to fulfill their mission to full capability not using the Coupeville OLF.
Are you opposed to the safety of our children? Do you feel the military should re-start using the OLF even they know they are harming our friends?
and if one leaves a comment critical of Growler practice at the OLF, does that insure that your phone will be tapped by the NSA and your next visitor might be a Navy drone?
Oh wait….we have Joe Kunzler’s 4000 strong thugs to vandalize property and make harrassing phone calls at 3 am….
Bee, good point, but Joe doesn’t have any army of anyone. He seems to have delusions that he is in charge of protecting the Navy, In reality he is just a Navy groupie who likes to take pictures of jets, and get his picture taken sitting in various aircraft. He has no authority or position. He just wants to keep coming to Whidbey to watch and take pictures of airctpraft. He doesn’t live here. He doesn’t get to live with the noise at 2AM, or have to drive 20 miles to escape and have a quiet dinner.
IMHO we should just ignore him and his constant “support our troops” drivel he keeps sending in to every paper on the island.
Rich Melass, Community Liaison, Whidbey Naval Air Station, supported and recommended the Board’s approval of the Comprehensive Plan changes in regard to the Noise Zone Map as well as staff recommended changes to ICC 14.01.B.
Answering questions from Commissioner McDowell, Mr. Melass said he was not aware of any other cities who had adopted as extensive a noise code as this, certainly nothing of the kind locally; this is considered at the leading edge and used as a model around the country. Pete Ross.
Is Commissioner McDowell the same person in charge of the Pro-OLF petition, Mac McDowell? Wasn’t he a developer? Hiding the disclosure then should make big problems for the Navy letting the jets fly again now. It looks like there has been no disclosure since 1992. He may have harmed OLF Coupeville more that he is currently helping it. The Navy looks bad when people aren’t notified. I wonder why he did it?
citizensofthereserve
November 7, 2013 at 6:21 pm
Money in the McDowell pocket. That’s why McDowell does everything.
About a month ago, KING5 News did a report on the relationship between aircraft noise and heart attacks. (I didn’t hear it all.) Are you aware of this report?
A political cartoon image has invaded my brain. The scene is a bird’s eye view from Admiral’s Cove to OLF. A Growler is swooping down from over the water to land. In front of the jet, there is a huge steam roller smashing houses as it climbs the hill toward the OLF. There are three figures driving the steam roller. One looks like Commissioner Mac McDowell, one like 2002 Navy Liaison Rich Melass,, and the last looking like the NMLS president. There is a stripped steam roller in the distance, labeled 1992 Noise Disclosure. The label on the steam roller lumbering up the hill is 2002 Noise Disclosure. The caption would read County Commissioners, Navy, and realtors clear the way for jets by stripping the 1992 Noise Disclosure.
I would change the caption to, “Clear the way for encroachment for a quick buck… by stripping the 1992 noise disclosure”
Agreed?
Bob Moxleye
November 3, 2013 at 8:25 am
I wouldn’t give any awards for the 1992 Noise disclosure either. If the numbers COER spent $5k measuring are right, it is going to have to say 134+. 100 is over the top. 80 is illegal in every setting. Noise doubles with every 10 decibels. So that means the noise is now 4 times what it was. It shouldn’t take an EIS study. My 4-year-old could figure this out.
Bob;
I don’t think it really matters beyond 100 dB – it’s loud and nobody should be living in that area. Nobody.
I also note I get 80-85 dB on the Island Transit bus with my iPod touch apps which means I have to crank up the volume almost if not as high as it’ll go to hear for instance a recording of a book or an Island County Commission meeting.
Noise is just one of the problems swept under the County carpet. Others include pollution (aka, jet fuel dumping over residences)and safety, and waving a generic “noise flag” does not begin to inform folks about how tremendously their lives can be effected. But COER is doing that for the County, and the buyers are just starting to figure get the message, and they are smiling and saying “Thanks, but no thanks.” And those left holding the bag…well that story has yet to be told.
Who cares about jet noise! Why is there no disclosure about the crash zone the Navy has failed to draw, as they are required to do? It would run 15,000 feet on either side of the OLF, be 3000 wide, which would be almost all of Admiral’s cove. When the Navy gets around to doing it at OLF as they did in Oak Harbor in 2008, would the Navy buy out the residents? There own regulations that no one should live there might require it. The Navy paid $2 mil to just one property owner in 2008. If people did not sell, could residents get homeowner’s insurance? Would buyers be able to get a loan? HUD, for one, won’t lend. Oh, and Admiral’s Cove gets no reduction on taxes on the crash zone property here like they do in Oak Harbor. Probably because the Navy has not yet said that the crash zone is the crash zone.
This information came directly from the navy, so no wonder it’s wrong!
As with only too many things, the navy has their own version of the truth!
It was just ” copy and paste” I did tell you the source……. NASWI HOUSING.COM complain to the navy on their recorded message service. Blame me for once again thinking the navy is telling the truth. Dumb me….. Should have known better! Bah!
Kelly, this just like the navy saying the Growlers were quieter than the EA6B! Ya sure, you betcha! Would you mind getting me the facts( pretend you’re a COER member) and, unlike the navy, I’ll be happy to correct their bogus history.
It is a stain on the community that you cannot give your name for fear of reprisal.
Your letter contains a lot of valuable information that the community needs, some of which it has heard, but unforunately not taken seriously because of the enormous resistance to doing anything that would annoy the Navy, for fear that criticism will cause the base to close. We are fightnig against enormous odds.
There is one thing in this post I must disagree with you about. If the Ault Field FPLCs are the planes that fly over my house in Oak Harbor, they are not an acceptable alternative to OLF. The only acceptable solution to me is that they fly NO planes low over civilians’ houses.
I am very glad that you are speaking out. I am very sorry that you have to do it anonymously.
-Responsible researchers don’t allude to undocumented “peer review studies.” Rather, the authors names are cited, the title of the paper, and the publishing journal are listed as well as the pages, etc.
If you can’t cite the “peer review science” you are referring to, don’t bother. Most of us are too well educated to fall for this.
Most of us are too educated to care whether names of authors and titles of incidental papers are cited in testimony like this. The testimony is damning of the Navy’s practices without such citations.
MyBaseGuide.com has stated for years NASWI burns 24 million gallons of fuel every year. Why hasn’t the amount of fuel gone up now that there are more planes? Is this just another lie?
We don’t know the total fuel consumption, it’s incredible, for sure. This was for one plane for one hour. You could do the math to find out the total amount of CO2 produced in a year…… But, it probably is too depressing.
Mr. Davis,
As far as I’m aware, the Growler doesn’t have sonar. The point of the article is yet another discovery of the harm caused by things we weren’t aware of just a couple of years ago. The killing of these harmless animals took place 10 years ago. The use of underwater explosions, the use of 235 decibel sonar, low frequency jet noise. these all are harming living things. That has been proven. We still use underwater sonar, harming animals. Did you know that the NorthWest Training Range Complex is proposing a “taking” of 650,000 animals over the next 10 years here in our home area? This is in the current EIS Draft Statement from the Navy. “taking” does NOT mean killing, killing is part of taking, as is moving, harming, injuring. This 650,000 figure includes 70 Orcas. Is that what should happen? A difficult question. The Growler is part of the overall problem. That is why we are going to get rid of them. We can’t get rid of the NWTRC, but, we can get rid of the Growler.
Many of us are part of military flying families and we remember the frightening risks we endured. Our hearts go out to this pilot’s loved ones. If, as I have, you have lost pilots to accidents in your family you know that they would do anything to avoid civilian casualties should the worst happen – but we all knew that it was often out of their control, and location was usually the ultimate factor. I am sure everyone involved in this tragedy is deeply grateful that no others were harmed.
OLF Coupeville happens to sit on native prairie soil. Check out the spectacular displays of blue camas, yellow buttercup and spring gold, white chickweed, among others, at Pacific Rim Institute right across the highway, starting about a month from now. Imagine coming around that curve and seeing the native prairie in its native glory. Sure beats thistles and jets.
As for those ugly blocks, I think they are just begging for some public art. Think of the burma-shave type messages which one might inscribe on those blocks. If you don’t want to “deface” their ugliness, think about the stiff tarps used by long-haul truckers. Wouldn’t it be nice to make artistic covers for those blocks out of such material? Coupeville has its plywood figures around halloween and christmas. The artistic possibilities for dressing up those blocks are limited only by peoples’ imaginations (and budgets, of course).
Remember that ridicule can be a more powerful weapon than outrage. Lets find ways to laugh at the Navy and its damaging foolishness.
The poor Islanders get nothing but noise, jet exhaust, and disrespect from the Whidbey Island locals when they protest. At least Oak Harbor gets a few minimum wage jobs!
This is just starting, folks! Write those elected officials, tell them how you are being treated by the navy.
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Have had tconcern the Navy would attempt to station the flawed F-35 at NAS Whidbey. NO ONE wants the F-35 there have been lawsuits to keep this aircraft out of communities. The noise of the F-35 is louder than the Growlers. Citizens of Tucson, AZ have requested a fly over for YEARS to demonstrate how disturbing this loud noise would be. The Air Force has evaded this request for a fly over with numerous lame excuses. Visit Tucson Forward for more information. The Internet is full of sites stating valid reasons the F-35 should be scrapped. CON-gress is engaging in Aid to Dependent Corporations squandering our tax dollars.
Is Robert Botts a double dipper working for Lockheed Martin?
While it is true that COER is not calling for closure of NAS Whidbey, I strongly believe this would be a good time to do a thorough economic analysis of the presence of the base. There is an ironclad assumption that Whidbey’s economy is completely dependent on the base. I hear commissioner Johnson citing the NAS payroll. What is missing from this accounting is the minus column. There are costs associated with the Navy’s presence. Making an entire region undesirable as a vacation destination or a place to live because of jet noise is one of those costs.
I dearly want to see an economist come forward who is both willing and able to do a serious economic analysis of the fiscal impact of the presence of NAS Whidbey. I think the results would surprise us all and would provide strong support for COER.
Joe apologizes – I’m AvgeekJoe on Flickr, hence the handle – caught a grammatical error. So decided to clean up my commentary.
———-
Thanks for using my photo. I’m blushing…
Because while you boo, I cheer.
That’s the UNITED STATES NAVY training to defend our rights. A ballgame can wait until after the OLF’s good work is done on the Navy’s training schedule. Country first and all of that.
You can say thank you to our Navy anytime now. The Navy didn’t put a neighborhood around their training field – realtors, politicians and blithering idiots (not much difference) did that. The question is what we do now that puts the LEAST burden on the American taxpayer.
Please, please, stop the flights at OLF. Only in the past few weeks, am I able to get even remotely a good night’s sleep.
I cannot afford to uproot my life again and move. My move here was the result of a divorce, $$$ implications, and being
pushed out of a rental. I had no idea I was moving into ‘hell’ – which is what it is when the Growlers/jets are flying.
Steve, I’m only staying out of the political process :-).
Now that the Navy has decided to keep OLF right where it’s at in the national interest since any alternative OLF site would require an EIS scoping meeting (I only learned this for sure in January) – a clear victory for me, the question is what does Island County do now? There’s little to no place for Skagitonians in that conversation.
I live in Victoria, BC (Canada) and I’m positive that it’s these aircraft that I can hear plain as day from my house. Sometimes it’s like thunder, other times it could easily be mistaken for an earthquake. I can only imagine how loud it must be for the Washington residents that live closer to the airstrip.
You ARE hearing the EA18Gs, please, contact your government representatives and complain. That is the only way this can be changed. You are being punished for OUR transgressions. Why we have to inflict our problem on another country is beyond me. The Growlers have to be moved elsewhere. Raise your voice!
I’m sure Senator Murray, who lives on Whidbey Island, would complain if not for the fact NAS Whidbey Island brings enough economic stimulus to pay for the public services. The national defense asset to be relocated would cost a 3-year second EIS, millions of dollars and possibly NAS Whidbey Island. If you doubt me, just ask a Navy spokesperson and they’ll give you the essay version.
I’m also sure OLF Coupeville is becoming a tourist attraction. Come to OLF Coupeville, see the Growlers dance, feel the raw po-wer in your ears & bones, share in a sense of patriotism and perhaps buy a discounted home from an exfiltrating COER member.
So I will call Senator Murray. Don’t expect me to be anything less than happy in calling to support
Economic stimulus? So that’s why K-Mart closed? The supposed economic stimulus from the base where the retired navy folks shop at the commissary rather than at K-Mart? The economic stimulus? So that’s why all those stores are closing on Pioneer Way? The economic stimulus? Oak Harbor is becoming a ghost town due to this economic stimulus we hear so much about.
Senator Murray is never here during the week.
Please, call the Good Senator, 202-224-2621, let her know just how large this problem is! If everyone calls, it just lets her know that this island is in serious trouble. Please, call! The more people call, the better it demonstrates the size of this problem….. Help COER out here, and call.
COER, you mention ONE store from a brand – namely K-Mart – that is on the decline nationally. Oak Harbor a ghost town? Really?
Every businessperson in Oak Harbor supports NAS Whidbey Island. There was even a resolution passed by the City Council in support of NAS Whidbey Island and massive support in the Chamber of Commerce.
BTW, what businesses have had to close in Coupeville due to the noise? List please.
I should also add it would be best if Whidbey found a collaborative solution here. The OLF is here to stay for some time, the problem is WHIDBEY ISLAND needs to discuss a wide range of mitigation strategies WITHOUT outside (i.e. ME) interfering. One option might be eminent domain for a new tent city jail for multiple counties. Another might be a voucher cashed upon moving and selling to a Navy family. Sadly, this is not SimCity and I realize that.
Dear Mr. Geekjoe,
Please read the article on the closing of so many businesses in Oak Harbor in the Whidbey News Times of May 3rd. That puts your argument to rest. The businesses of Oak Harbor are going, due to the continued loss of revenue to the commissary where the current base members shop, as well as the retired military. If the military contributed so much to the area, why are all these businesses closing? The economy is better, the recession is over, no more excuses. Rather than just expressing emotion, please, in the future, use facts. The use of words like “every” and “massive”, prove nothing.
A tent city jail? Sir, THIS IS NOT ARIZONA!!!! This is a state where humans come before money, or used to!
I live northeast of Oak Harbor and struggle every day as the Growlers fly over my home and that of my children and grandchildren. We are now into our fourth day of flights beginning early in the morning and into the night. I empathize with your plight at OLF and have written letters supporting the end of the Growlers reign of terror and defending members of COER. I just want you to know that their are many of us here by the base that have to tolerate the Growlers for the majority of the week and last summer was horrendous when they stopped flying OLF and all flights took place up here. I still have a grandchild that has not slept in her bed for almost a year now because the Growlers fly maybe two hundred feet above their home. I really believe you are lucky that the flights are now limited at OLF and hope that people living there realize you are making a difference where you live. I only wish there was momentum on the north end and attention given to the issue here. I am sorry you will be exposed to the Growlers for the dates listed but personally I am relieved that for a few nights we will have peace.
That was NOT the reason FCLPs at Coupeville was cancelled. I was there. Please have the decency to frame your arguments with at least a smattering of the truth. But I guess that doesn’t really matter to you
Mr Danielson,
We really don’t understand your comment. This was the article in the Whidbey News Times. We did not alter or edit the article. If you have other information as to why the FCLPs were cancelled, would you please inform us! As far as we know, they were cancelled because of yet another fatal jet crash, and the navy wanted to have everyone review their safety procedures. Truth matters very much to us as that is the only thing we use against the navy in stopping the Growlers from flying. Our lawsuit used, for the most part, information that came from the navy. We supplied the sound study, the navy supplied the facts we used.
Again, if you have different information than the Whidbey News Times, we would definitely like to have it.
Regards,
COER
The Navy (NAS Oak Harbor) thinks that it is supporting it’s citizens by the potential danger of low flying aircraft (crash landings) and the damaging and viceral effects of extreemly loud jet noise. Some in neighboring communities such as Oak Harbor believe that they “love jet noise” however, if personally presented with this option they would very soon tire of it’s harmful effects. Essentially the lovers of ‘jet noise’ are enamored by their thinly vieled perception of jet noise which underlies their crass commercial inerest. It is easy to see why they support jet noise which is for their benefit which is in the interest of realtors and some sellers, to gain legitimacy among locals and to serve their pecunary inerests. No one outside of the area is going to by a home based on a realtor loving jet noise or for that matter a local resident.
Love the new improved sign showing true concern for quality of life, preserving property rights, freedom from health threats, protection of marine, wildlife and the ecosystem.
The OLF field that you are trying to shutdown is for the purpose of training those same pilots to perform carrier landings both day and night. Perhaps the pilot who crashed was denied the opportunity to acquire necessary training in carrier landings due to the actions of groups like your own. There will be more of these tragedies if you do not desist and allow these pilots to do their much needed training so they may operate in a safe manner. There is nothing worse in this world than a bunch of whining NIMBYs.
The navy will never let the pilots fly without proper training, please understand that our mission is only to have them train somewhere else, not deny them training. COER values the lives of our people in the military. The military has shown they can train elsewhere as they didn’t use the OLF for 11 months. No pilot is allowed to let their carrier training go that long. They can, and have been training at other places than the Coupeville OLF. They trained at Ault field, El Centro, San Diego, as well as China Lake. So how is it that they weren’t trained? Coupeville is no place for ” student drivers” the desert is.
All planes should be grounded until the cause of these crashes is determined to protect the ecosystem and citizens from undue harm. Fortunately there was no loss of life. However the ocean will now be contaminated with toxic jet fuel and any other toxins on the plane. Families have lost their homes in devastating fires. Military training should not be conducted in areas where there is a possibility of loss of life and property damage. How is the military the worlds worst polluter using the most fossil fuel going to compensate victims for loss of cherished family mementos, photos, heirlooms … HOW?
first to call these men and women “kids”is an insult. how would like to be called a kid when you are an adult? they will piece the harrier to find out what happened for that one to crash. for the f-18 at sea, if they can recover it they will and determine what cause that one to crash as well. the harrier was making it’s approach to land, it was not doing active training at the time. to ground the entire air wing is a bit of an over kill. do we ground the entire airline industry when a jet crashes? chances are the pilots was telling the control exactly what happened prior to them ejecting.
Lapointe sounds good. I wonder how he stands on the other issues; for instance, raising the minimum wage, on which Rick is sound.
The problem with supporting Lapointe now is that unless he has a chance of winning, we could put another Republican in the Congress. That’s always the problem of voting for a third party candidate when the nominee of our party is not acceptable.
31,000 machinists think rick is a boeing tool.
and lots of folks think rick is a war criminal, because he knew
all about the murder, torture, and renditions, due to his position
on the armed services committee; yes, he knew all about bush and cheney
and their whole scheme. but he did and said nothing, because his boss Pelosi
said so; ole nancy is of the same cloth- a complicit war criminal. but rick
wouldn’t have said anything, because was a bushlicker !
rick no longer owns a house here in WA..no, he rents here and owns a house near
the stinking cesspool that is our nation’s Capitol which puts him in the right
place to become a boeing lobbyist. and, i’ll bet that dweeb already puts a lot of boeing bucks
in his wallet on a regular basis. Yep, ANYTHING, ANYONE… is better than rick !
The jet noise isn’t “the sound of freedom.” It’s the sound of our being prisoners of an oppressive and violent military-industrial state. The jets should be grounded. And turned into plowshares.
I agree with Ms. Brabanski. Superb letter, Ms. Spina. Unfortunately trying to argue facts with the WNT trolls like Gray, Siebert, etc. is like trying to argue evolution with a creationist. It is appalling that the Whidbey News Times does not report facts, yet allows trolls to dominate its opinion area.
Love how he is so concerned just about North Whidbey and not the rest of the island. Larson needs to be gone, LaPointe has my vote for sure. Larson is playing to the right wingers only, thinking they are the majority on this island. I think he will have a rude awakening come election time.
Gotta agree, its time to vote for someone with his head on straight who actually speaks for all of us. Mike has thus far said a whole lot of things I wish I’d said. Please check out my election crib sheet, at http://politiblongwind.blogspot.com/ for research and comments on all the candidates in the August 5 primary. And please REMEMBER TO VOTE AND RETURN YOUR BALLOTS.
How did your out of state family do last night? The Growlers were late and loud, I hope the young one got some sleep. Please remember to call Senator Murray. More today, tomorrowThursday, as well as Friday, this is not right.
just completed call number 15 to Senator Murray, also reminded her, that if she wants campaign funds from us, she needs to do her job and look into this.
If the EIS will be expanded, shouldn’t the Navy also study the effects of selling Growlers made in St. Louis to foreign countries and, as part of the package, including contracts to train their pilots here? What is the balance of gain weighed against the additional abuse of people living in the noise zones? Should any gain be acceptable that burdens this noise zone community further?
How will these constant escalations be viewed by this community, some of whom suffer from a number of health conditions exacerbated by this level of noise? They see that the Navy does not factor additional persecution into these important decisions. Many can’t afford to move. They see what that means for their future and it is terrifying. Would anyone dispute, from the viewpoint of many civilians who were trapped under this deadly noise, that this is torture?
Congressman Rick Larsen, Coupville Mayor Nancy Conard and Commissioner Helen Price Johnson need to review and consult with their constituents in total. I personally do not appreciate being represented as being opposed to NAS Whidbey Growlers. I resent being included in this ridiculous request. If the COER are the chosen few being represented, then we need to reconsider our votes.
These elected leaders are considering the complete problems created by the Growlers. The health issues as well as economic ones. Is it better to kill someone with noise just to save a job? If life is valued, then the health damages must be considered. It is 12:07 AM, the Growlers are still doing FCLPs, that is harmful to human and animal health.
Last night, 8/12/14, the noise levels in my neighborhood were well above the stated limit for our noise zone of 65 db – most were 85 to 90 db. My neighbor was so upset that the Paramedics were called. They flew after midnight.
Seems that there may be very good reasons for ‘ramping up’ the ‘assault’ on Whidbey. Look around: the political arena is full of threats right now. Unrest and very bad relations with Russia all compounded to produce a very good reason for our military to stay focused and WELL TRAINED. Sorry, I have read your data and blogs. I have paid attention and tried to be understanding of your concerns. But the facts remain: you seem to be in the minority side on an issue that impacts the economic health of our lives. We want the military presence to STAY HERE. Period.
When economics takes precedence over the physical and mental health of the residents of central Whidbey will be sad times. If you tell us that a job is more important than the health of citizens, I fear for our country. Many of us are tired of being collateral damage. Is the job of one person more important than the very health and well being of another? We do NOT dispute the fact of the necessary training of our crews, just where they train!
We want the Growlers to move! You would rather we are hurt and maimed? The minority? Is the harming or death of even ONE person not more important than any job?
You apparently feel it’s OK to hurt people just to protect your job?
My quality of life is directly measured by how much Skyraiding and OLFing I get in my life. Also how much motion blur.
EMINENT DOMAIN COER WHIDBEY NOW! We’ll give you THE OPTION of a new, planned community in South Whidbey with a TISSUE PAPER PLANT for employment purposes.
Keep flopping like another bunch of millionaires who dribble a basketball or chase a soccer ball and some jealous aviation geek will start a petition for EMINENT DOMAIN COER WHIDBEY!!
We’ll also demand BLEACHERS & OLF FAN APPRECIATION DAYS!!
At least “Joe” is honest about why he expects people to suffer silently. Add “photo opportunities” to the reasons people want an endless stream of Growlers. He shows a very nasty side because his hobby might be threatened with no feelings for real people living their lives with the Growlers every day. Embarrassing how he threatens to do something to move people out of their homes to get what he wants – a hobby. I’ve never commented like this, but I had to say it.
I do not want you to “suffer silently”. I don’t see watching EA-18Gs as something to “suffer” but I am sick and tired of the 1-sided view that quality of life is being harmed by EA-18Gs. Some see bouncing EA-18Gs are joyful.
Now, I support IF we have provable data you were harmed for you to BE COMPENSATED and have a fair go at leaving. For those who did not get noise disclosures, I am willing to pay higher taxes to get those folks a mulligan. It would take a lot less longer than $3 million, a 2nd 3+ year EIS and litigation from whomever would get a new OLF of untold hundreds of millions in their neighborhood. Plus EMINENT DOMAIN & buy aviation easements most likely of some folks at the new OLF site. See my logic – measure twice, eminent domain or buy easments once and fair go?
I also wanted to tease some of the whiners I read here. Flop at your own risk…
Have you considered posting the actual scheduled times vice “LATE INTO THE NIGHT!” As Coupeville has to seize operations at midnight, I just figure you might want to be accurate.
We just pass on the information exactly as we get from the navy from their press release. We wish they were more accurate.
We do wish the navy would quit at midnight. They don’t take our suggestions when we tell them they are harming us, either!
How exactly is your health a concern here? Are Growlers infecting these people with ebola? This website is just rhetoric in a pathetic attempt to get other people emotionally involved in your own problems. Sorry, but your hearing isn’t really at risk, and yeah, it isn’t that much of a concern to me. I also love the link to frightened horses…oh yeah, the Navy is cruel lot, hell-bent on mercilessly scaring horses. In nature, animals are NEVER frightened of anything…nor do they ever adapt to their surroundings and environments. I look forward to your response telling me I know nothing about anything. I heart Jet Noise.
I understand today COER was asked today to decide between uh:
a) Property values
AND
b) Health emergency as Someone’s website now bloviates like one of those Tea Party sites
“Admiral Rich … stated that it would be exceptionally challenging to acquire a new OLF both financially and environmentally additionally; it would take a very long time, likely over 10 years (mid 2020s).”
So which is it – health emergency requiring evacuation or a nuisance worth waiting “over 10 years”? Because those jets you hate so much are going to have to train while they and you wait for that new OLF… something that is “exceptionally challenging”.
So COER, as you whine about criticism understand this: You can either fight the system and lose or you can realize this isn’t the neighborhood for you, never will be, never should have been BECAUSE YOU WERE DECEIVED and not told about the OLF nor the aviation easements nor the fragile dependency of the economy on the Naval Air Station. The solution to the deception is NOT spending untold hundreds of millions so your property value can bounce like a Growler.
That plane in the photo is right where it would be over Admiral’s Cove, at about that altitude and distance, before it drops over the hill to land. Everyone who hasn’t experienced that location should take a little field trip and sit there for an hour during training so they know what they are talking about when they criticize people who want them gone. The Lilly study measured 119 dba and 134 db somewhere near there, way over the 100 decibels in the new disclosure, and definitely requiring not even a second in time for permanent ear damage. Never mind heart, kidney, etc etc problems. Its drop dead deafening. No study has measured what it does because noise that loud isn’t allowed anywhere else because it is ILLEGAL. Only the Navy gets to break the law unless Congress tells them no more. I’m going to paste that photo into an email to the Armed Services Committee and tell them to read their Open Letter again and really think about what we go through. No more. No more. thanks for providing the email addresses. Click, email opens, and paste. Simple.
New OLF would take over 10 years.
Eminent Domain would take a lot less.
So sick of the claiming of “health emergency” over oh a few seconds per bounce of loudness then almost quiet for a few minutes then loudness then quiet. You should get compensated, that’s for sure.
If my friends and I want to risk our hearing, put the earplugs in or earphones on and have a good time – that’s our choice and we have NO claim to make because we know what we’re doing. But those who didn’t know and bought property instead of having a choice to buy somewhere quiet, different story.
I hope you can get out from under the jets soon. I’ll make sure to demand eminent domain. The greedy realtor$ will hate my COJONES for it too.
God you freeking clowns are beyond stupid see what happens if you piss of congress with this stupid shit and they pull the navy out you could kiss this area goodbye. Christ look back to the 90’s when you fought to keep the base open really you tards are as bad as the dumb ass sitting in the presidents office saying that he was not responsible for the troops being pulled out of Iraq
Retribution is exactly what happened to R&A H from pilots seeking revenge for complaints in multimillion dollar Growlers. We have had retribution all day Aug. 26, indeed for the past year in Oak Harbor! Growler pilots have no boundaries, they do not fly in established flight paths. They fly low at tree level in the super highway OVER our home. Fumes from Growler exhaust makes us hostages in our own homes. Mr. J. D. Golden, aid to Larsen, 202-225-2605 told me air quality tests are in progress. Is this the result of our complaints? I did not have a chance to determine who is conducting these air quality tests if it is the Navy or an independent agency. The fumes are so heavy I am afraid the atmosphere will explode. We will not accept dumping these crumbs in our beautiful area. The Navy lacked vision to secure adequate space decades ago, indeed NASWI was on the BRAC list in 1991 and 2005. Why should we suffer this invasion and occupation because of Navy lack of vision? Why are tax dollars used to harass us we do NOT want to live in a war zone?
Here we go again10 PM Growler engines revving up how late will Growlers fly when can we sleep?
Sir, with all due respect:
(1) Growler pilots have no idea where you live.
(2) The Growler does not have GPS where you can enter a street address. To quote another, “It’s not a TomTom.”
(3) Growler pilots have no knowledge of when you make noise complaints. The 23-35 year old aircrew flying jets are training for combat deployment, not to annoy you. They give absolutely ZERO consideration to how many times you call.
(4) They fly their patterns so that they can deploy to combat safely and return home safely. No matter how many times you make a noise complaint, no pilot will ever hear about it.
(5) Your fight is with politicians. Don’t make it about the aircrew. They are doing their job and will continue to do their job regardless of your feelings. They don’t answer to you. They answer to senior military commanders who in turn answer to elected civilian leadership.
I just arrived home from a week long stay at the hospital, the reason for the stay was severe complex migraines. Never had an issue with headaches until I moved to Coupville, wondering if there is a direct correlation between the two. If anyone knows of any studies that can link the two together that would help my Neurologist out I would appreciate it.
I believe that this will inhibit my healing from total knee replacement due to the traumatic stress and due to lack of sleep from the horrific noise and fear that the Growlers represent.
There has never been, and never will be a call from COER to close NASWI. My knee is fine, thanks, but my hearing is about gone. Yes, the navy should remove the EA18G. As a hornet driver, do you get compensation for your hearing loss? I don’t! Is that right?
The Growler has caused me zero hearing loss. I have no medical claims. But in the event that something did happen to me in a jet, I knew the risks long before now. I accept those risks in order to have an exciting job and life. That’s the tradeoff. That’s why aviators train – to minimize risks.
For Field Carrier Landing Practice, the jets must practice at sea level. So unfortunately, all those locations are near the coast where people like to live. Fallon sits at 4800 feet. China Lake sits at 2800 feet. So as long as jets need to land on aircraft carriers (long time), the jets will need to inconvenience people somewhere near the coast to train.
COER’s suggestions are not valid because none of the locations suggested (Yakima, Moses Lake, China Lake) are anywhere near sea level, nor do they replicate the carrier environment. So the only other choice is – move the jets from your backyard into someone else’s backyard on the coast.
I can promise you (aside from all other mitigation strategies) D.C. is only going to move more jets to Whidbey, not less. Why? Quite truthfully, because Congressmen and Senators don’t get elected by 50 Whidbey residents who don’t like jet noise. They get elected by Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrup Grumman. I’m not asking you to believe me, nor am I attempting to be snotty. You can look up who the top campaign contributors are to almost every member of the Senate and House Armed Services Committees. And it’s pretty obvious how those votes will go. Your strategy is incorrect. Demanding the Navy change its training program will do absolutely nothing. Neither will calling in noise complaints. Your only strategy is to change how people get elected. All your other techniques are a waste of time and money.
Last week we waited until after the jets were done flying before we took our dogs out for a walk at Rhododendron Park. While we were walking, the jets resumed flying. We were at least 15 minutes away from the car. The sound was deafening as we were right under the jets. While we were walking, an older women came from the opposite direction walking her three dogs. The woman was obviously distressed and disoriented as were her dogs. She stopped us and screamed that she was lost and could not find her car. Each time a jet flew over she would cover her ears and hunker down almost to a fetal positions. We questioned her and figured out where she must have parked and helped her find her car. My husband had to try to keep her older big golden moving as he wanted to crawl under bushes and hide from the noise. I was trying to keep our two dogs calm. And her little dogs were running in circles trying to escape the noise. I do not know what would have happened to her if we had not crossed paths.
We get it, you like to take pictures of airplanes and then you go back to nice quiet Sedro Wooly for a good nights sleep. How bout if the new OLF is built in SW? then when it affects your health and welfare I’ll tell you to just suck it up ’cause we know how you love jet noise. You are not a stake holder in this issue. Don’t presume to tell us how to act or to protect our homes, welfare, or our health. MYOB.
Ralph, OLF is very much MYOB bro. All of America pays for it. I am American, respect me and I will respect you. Okay?
I have asked OLF flight ops be moved to Skagit. Repeatedly in 1-on-1 conversations. Too expensive, too costly, too much time to do a 2nd EIS, buy aviation easements + spend years litigating eminent domain cases, and strengthen or build a new runway.
I am sorry this is the case – Skagitonians who use surplus Whidbey Island labor should share in the sacrifice and glory. Just as a certain county seat whose main employer – Island County Government – is dependent on NAS Whidbey Island revenue streams.
That said, I’m sure Ralph you speak for and from many opponents of OLF, the Navy and me. The annoyance has some empathy with me. That’s why I support compensation for folks like you.
If the Navy needs all these special conditions for their training they should have had the fore site to establish a proper facility with a sufficient buffer zone from civilian population. This is not the case at OLF Coupeville. If the Navy wants to stay here, they should buy out central Whidbey and raze Coupeville to create a military utopia. Otherwise the “50 Whidbey Island residents who don’t like jet noise” will continue to fight for their right to a peaceful and quiet home.
John, thank you for realizing why I support eminent domain.
A new OLF would require:
*A second EIS study of 3-5 years
*Lawsuit settlements, eminent domain and Aviation easements at the new site
*Risking the future of NAS Whidbey Island and therefore the national defense plus Skagit & Island Economies. Perhaps Washington State’s economic health… all for a few folks who strayed into a jet noise area.
It is U. S. Navy lack of consideration for the rights of property owners and history of Ebey’s Reserve, Deception Pass Park, Historic Coupeville and other historic areas on Whidbey Island. How stupid of the U. S. Navy to assume Growlers the loudest aircraft ever would be welcome on Whidbey Island. No one anywhere wants to be subjected to constant earsplitting noise at all hours of the day and night. Growler noise is a disruption of our peaceful life the reason most citizens want to live on Whidbey. The U.S. Navy has the nerve to propose stationing even more Growlers at NAS Whidbey. The DOD has many other locations with more space and sparse population. There is no consideration for the safety of Whidbey Island Citizens. It is not safe to have young pilots training in Growlers over our homes, why hasn’t the U.S. Navy taken action to protect citizens? It is only a matter of time before there is a horrendous ‘mishap’. How many people will be killed, how many homes destroyed? Why should communities on Whidbey Island have to live in fear?
Sorry to inform you, Sir, but I would take a look at your elected representatives, particularly those on the Senate and House Armed Services Committees. They are the ones who approved the jets, the funding lines, and the billions of dollars of support that allows for Growler operations to thrive at NAS Whidbey Island. The Navy has very little to do with it.
The jets aren’t going to move because it isn’t just the jets. It’s the people, the infrastructure, training, and maintenance facilities worth billions of dollars. It’s much easier to buy out a few civilians than to relocate an entire program (EA-18G). I worked at the Pentagon. I assure you that I have been on the inside of these conversations. It’s an easy decision for lawmakers.
If the jets leave, NAS Whidbey Island closes because there is no sustainability for a single platform base in today’s fiscal environment. Bases need to be joint and/or multi-platform, which is exactly why the P-8 is coming to Whidbey. So in short, the Growlers and P-8 Poseidons just guaranteed that NAS Whidbey will be around for the next 60 years. The vast majority of Island County benefits from the base. And although the extremely small minority is welcome to complain, no Growler pilot will ever hear your complaints. Voting for different representatives won’t change it either because they all know that closing a military base in your own region is political suicide.
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Mr. Stevens, sorry to use this space, there is something wrong with the “reply” section.
Dear John Stevens,
We have stated before, ONE of our goals is to close the OLF, The Growlers did not use the OLF for 11 months last year. They are also limited to 6120 ops a year until the EIS is completed. If the EIS is extended, so will the partial shutdown of the OLF. If the navy can make do with only 6120 ops at the OLF, they can make do with zero as they have before. Perhaps you are a recent transfer. They can, and do quite well without it. We have no intention or desire to close the base. And, as you said, it’s the electeds that make the decisions, not the navy, and of that, we are very glad. That’s why that’s where we are putting our efforts, not on the navy. If you might have noticed, Rick Larsen was NOT endorsed for re election by the Democratic party of San Juan County. They endorsed the Independent, Mike Lapoint! We are starting to be heard. Did you read the letter from Senator John McCain to Ray Mabus? Ray Mabus serves at the pleasure of civilians. The civilians ask the questions, the navy answers. That’s why we ask people to call Senator Murray and Senator Cantwell, NOT Ray Mabus. If the electeds want to Growlers to go, and to keep the Base open, that is what will happen. Just like you said. It’s NOT a navy decision, they have no say. If a Growler pilot never hears our complaints, that’s fine, as they should be listening to the sound of their jet. The pilots should be practicing, not politicking, leave that to the civilians, their bosses.
The people of central Whidbey, Port Townsend, the San Juan Islands, Camano Island, La Conner, are the ones being harmed physically and economically by the Growlers, these civilians vastly outnumber the residents of north Whidbey Island who are tied to the economic succor of the Growlers. Central Whidbey, South Whidbey, Camano Island, Jefferson County, San Juan County, even Victoria, receive no economic benefit whatsoever from the Growler presence. The only area that wants the Growlers is some of the residents of north Whidbey, and even many of those living there are being harmed and strongly dislike the noise of the Growlers, and would love to see the Growlers go. We hear their complaints, not you. We are, and will be heard in Washington DC. Our country is run by civilians, not the military…..yet.
Joe,
No we aren’t OK. first just because you like to watch FCLP at 525 feet with earplugs for your pictures doesn’t mean that you are a stakeholder in this discussion. If you want to be “one of us” move to the Prarie with your old and infirm parents. then try to sleep, watch TV or read with the jets going over at 120 db every couple of minutes from about 8PM until well after midnight.Explain to them how this is necessary for our security and that the even though our country which spends more on it’s military than the next ten nations combined can’t somehow find the dollars to find another location off ran OLF. be sure to make sure they wear their ear muffs when they sit outside on the porch to watch the deer or just.catch a sunset. Explain to your neighbors who took their kids out of Little League because of noise measured at over 120db just have to suck it up because this is the only place that this practice can take place.
The Growler is a great asset to the protection of our people and their equipment. The only problem we have is them based here, and using the OLF. Your other statements stand. I hope Senator McCain votes his conscience, as he is known to do. The Armed Services Committee will decide what they decide. “Everything is as it will be, until it isn’t.” Nothing is set in stone. The civilians who decide these things are a capricious bunch. One part of the navy is building a base, while another part is preparing to demolish it, as you are well aware. It’s a wonder more things don’t end up as screwed up as the “lawn dart” F-35. Or, do they and we just aren’t informed?
Because we Americans are patriotic enough to believe in process and property rights a new OLF will require a new EIS, ample compensation (eminent domain, aviation easements, the like) and 5-10 years to do. Not to mention the costs of the new OLF itself.
What you propose is to shift the burden onto other Americans for the decisions Central Whidbey and Island County has made. I, being an American who pays taxes and therefore will pay for any American or Washingtonian remedy, have a right to a say.
We the American People can and should allow folks in Central Whidbey who can prove impacts compensation for new ballfields and perhaps a mulligan to buy a new home away not just from the jet noise but from those pusillanimous souls whom bully, torment and harass folks like you who won’t sign their name to their actions. I on the other hand will and when wrong will publicly apologize, as I have done before.
You may not want money to move, but it’s either that or demand over 3,000 other counties pay and wage a long dispossession campaign against other Americans for your right of peace & quiet. Which is it my fellow American because as Americans WE are certainly stakeholders as you so aptly put it?
Claims the U.S. Navy is an economic engine is a fallacy. Anytime Growlers fly low over any residential community or business there is the possibility of a crash with deadly consequences. We have read about such tragedies with loss of life and homes. Growlers violate clean air standards with toxic jet fuel and OSHA safety standards of less than 85 decibels. Business owners are responsible for the health and safety of their employees. Business owners cannot conduct normal business activities there is no possibility of having a telephone conversation when Growlers are training.
Businesses providing well paying jobs will not consider establishing a business on Whidbey Island due to the constant noise and disruption of Growlers. The U. S. Navy has created a community with NO diversification a threat to the economy of any community.
We are more than aware that your response is in no way an official opinion. While well thought out and intelligent, you ARE responding, the navy hasn’t bothered. Thank you for your comments, thought provoking.
does anyone know how many FCLP have been completed so far this year? If I remember correctly, the EIS stated they were only allowed to fly a certain amount and then they were to stop. That is one of the reason they had to stop last time, the exceeded the amount of flights stated in the EIS.
The navy agreed to limit themselves to 6120 ops ( 3,060 bounces) as they stated they were going to do in their own EA. WE have to do a FOIA to get the number so far. You are right, that’s why they stopped last year, they thought we weren’t counting, and we caught them red handed, so to speak.
I know a number of people who called and emailed the Navy about the altitude of the jets. Low flying Growlers are scary and loud – a total disruption. That’s why the Supreme Court rules a “taking” if they fly under 500 feet. Of course people call to complain. People in Admirals Cove are told they fly at 500 feet. What a coincidence. But look at the chart. They fly 300-440 feet there and probably lower at times. The Navy doesn’t care what gets said to get people off the phone. And,they get to do anything after they’ve done it long enough. The air space becomes an easement. Watch out Freeland and Greenbank. If they start flying over you and you let them, they’ll get their easement over your property, too. They’ll need your airspace, with all the Growlers coming. Where do you think twice as many will fly? Remember the frog in hot water anaology? A frog put in a pan of really hot water will jump out. A frog in water where the temperature is increased slowly will just sit there and cook. Do this instead. Contact Congress. Get email, samples, and more to email the decision-maker who can get them to stop. Go to: http://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/contact-congress/
“The Navy can’t run away every time a few folks are annoyed.”
“FEW FOLKS” who happen to be taxpayers not dependent on the government for their livelihood engaged in diversified clean industry. Patriotic Americans do have a constitutional right to enjoy property no matter where they live. “FEW FISH”, many endangered other vital to our food supply and health of the ocean. The U. S. Navy has no right to turn our oceans into toxic soup with deadly sonar reflecting poorly on Americans causing global outrage. Why should whales die from 250 decibels of sonar causing their eardrums and hearts to burst? This is cruel and inhumane.
Whidbey Island in NOT a proper location for loud earsplitting noise from Growlers when there are suitable locations with adequate training space. China Lake has 17.000 square miles of protected air space. U.S. Navy personnel my not find China Lake their ideal place to live but they have made a choice to enlist surrendering their right to where they choose to reside. The U. S. Navy has no right to destroy our desirable area with this menace.
“DECISION MAKERS” have refused to listen to our complaints since 1991 when NAS Whidbey was on the BRAC list. “DECISION MAKERS” held secret meetings using public funds to promote their agenda to benefit only them. “DECISION MAKERS” employed the same tactic in 2005 when NAS Whidbey was once again on the BRAC list. Thank you for at least admitting there is an ongoing problem with “DECISION MAKERS” refusing to listen.
I live about 4 blocks from Pt Hudson with a view of the water directly towards Whidbey. I live on the 3rd floor where I’ve seen growlers flying so close and so low that I don’t have to look “up” to see them – there they are, right out my window. From my sailing experience in this area, I estimate the jets have flown as close as 2/3’s of the way from Whidbey to Port Townsend, if not closer … definitely beyond the “flight pattern” range. When they fly that close it’s reminds me of the air shows where planes fly as close as they can for “show”. I hope people from all over our region respond to the noise pollution of the growlers with firm and enduring disapproval. As bad as the noise is in PT, I cannot even imagine what it’s like in Coupeville. My heart and fury over this is with you.
Does that amount of noise generated “make it right?” The problem is the noise and the damage it causes. Seems like you are saying, “it’s professional, orderly…..” We are talking about the harm the noise causes, Not how “orderly” it looks. Your priorities are skewed way out of kilter.
I removed the comment, I’m sorry, it was not intended that way. While we hope to close the OLF, and have the Growlers moved to a more appropriate place, where there is no harm to the civilians under the flights, there is no desire for the pilots and crews to be placed in harms way. How the navy chooses to fly is, and should be, their decision. Where they fly should be a consideration of the space used, both air and ground. What is the result of the overflights to those on the ground. That is our priority.
“ be prepared to fly in combat. That matters more to me and my family than your peace and quiet.” That comment really surprises and disturbs me. Your lack of care or concern for the very people you are supposedly hired to protect! Aren’t you supposedly protecting our peace and quiet? You feel that harming the civilians under your flights is OK. Strange. Very Strange. But, like you said, our priorities are different.
And – negotiate on the phone with an important buyer/seller, work through a problem in a relationship, take advantage of a teaching moment or effectively discipline a child, fine tune the wording of an important email or letter, sort through a problem with your computer, enjoy romance, praise a dear friend, cherish a two-day visit from someone you haven’t seen in a long time, deal with news of a critical health problem, deal with the hundredth frustration doing something very difficult that you have to sort out in a timely way, have a meaningful moment of praise or prayer, deal with the moss on your roof or painting that must be completed before it starts raining again, enjoy the last few days of enjoyment a swimming pool, learn the software program you must know before the end of the month, finish an important school assignment, console someone that just learned of a devastating loss, plan your vacation of a life-time, repair the car, hang shutters, trim trees, practice an instrument, get the sleep you need to avoid getting sick, participate in stress reducing activities to be better able to deal with the Growler stress the following week, write a poem…
There will be even less of the above when twice the number of jets are flying and they are flying like they did at the beginning of last year. Use the quiet to focus on contacting Congress so decision-makers know what is going on:
Well, while you are flying your jet over us, we are denied these simple pleasures:
And – negotiate on the phone with an important buyer/seller, work through a problem in a relationship, take advantage of a teaching moment or effectively discipline a child, fine tune the wording of an important email or letter, sort through a problem with your computer, enjoy romance, praise a dear friend, cherish a two-day visit from someone you haven’t seen in a long time, deal with news of a critical health problem, deal with the hundredth frustration doing something very difficult that you have to sort out in a timely way, have a meaningful moment of praise or prayer, deal with the moss on your roof or painting that must be completed before it starts raining again, enjoy the last few days of enjoyment a swimming pool, learn the software program you must know before the end of the month, finish an important school assignment, console someone that just learned of a devastating loss, plan your vacation of a life-time, repair the car, hang shutters, trim trees, practice an instrument, get the sleep you need to avoid getting sick, participate in stress reducing activities to be better able to deal with the Growler stress the following week, write a poem…
Thank you LorettaRaze for those marvelous words.
Thanks, that’s a very good idea. We do appreciate the people who chose of their own volition to sign up for this job. They knew what they were signing up for, not that that makes the separation easier. We on the ground should be sent ear protection from them in return. In our case, we don’t receive any protection from the navy, or lifelong compensation from the health problems caused by the noise like people that wanted to do this in the navy get. I would think equal protection and compensation would be fair?
I do believe all those people on the USS CARL VINSON Signed up very willingly for the job. None were forced. We are forced to hear the noise from the flights overhead. Please don’t drag out that old chestnut ” you signed the paper” the paper I signed was not approved by the county as the official notice.
Sonic boom, I doubt, having heard many of them. The thrust of the article was NOT about wheather or not there was a sonic boom. It was the utter violation of the people’s lives. The lack of regard by the navy. The destruction of our way of life without any regard to the citizens living under them. The fear, the tears of children. The psychological as well as medical damage done by the navy to citizens.
The jets fly in and out of major airports in major cities all the time. This was simply a case of getting from Point A to Point B. These guys travel for 200 days a year all over the U.S. in a year when they aren’t deployed overseas. They have to land sometime. I’m not sure how there’s any blame for the Navy for a simple transit flight. There’s always a house next to a runway somewhere. And the bigger issue is the credibility of the people who claim things like “sonic booms.” It’s hard to take them seriously. And you know as well as I do that you can’t prove 1 lick of medical damage- the Seattle doctor that gave you the presentation told you that. We have tens of thousands of people who have worked around fighter jets for 30 years who have zero medical problems. Just out of curiosity, where have you heard these sonic booms – certainly not around OLF Coupeville as the jets don’t travel nearly fast enough there.
Mr Stevens,
Once more you are missing the point. The point, once again, is the disruption of the quality of life of the people the navy is supposed to protect. if there was a sonic boom, and I have heard many growing up in Minneapolis very close to Wold Chamberlain Field, is beside the point. I have not heard one here. The point is the frightening of citizens of our own country when unnecessary. WE are not your enemy, but the way the navy behaves, we feel they are treating us as such! What ever happened to the navy being “good neighbors”?
That has gone by the wayside. We now feel citizens are just acceptable collateral damage in your mission of domination and destruction of the way of life in this area.
You are just using “sonic boom” to take attention away from what happened. A normal tactic when someone is wrong….. Find a straw to cling to. The citizens were afraid for their lives, frightened by navy EA-18G jets. That is the only point.
The medical damage is a proven fact, read your own Wyle report in your own navy documents. Read how the navy damages their own people that actually filled out a job application to work for the military in the “PA 265 Interem Audit Report” documents where even the navy lists the harm caused. The VA pays over a billion dollars a year in hearing damages. We get 0 compensation. Go on our links and files section and read the reports from the navy on harm caused.
Regards
citizensofthereserve
September 22, 2014 at 9:32 am
Being exposed to high levels of airport noise could raise your risk of heart disease, according to two new studies published in the British Medical Journal.
( I removed the first study, as it was about Heathrow)
The second study was based on U.S. data and conducted by researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health and Boston University School of Public Health. The researchers looked at 2009 heart-related hospital admission data from 6 million Medicare recipients who lived near 89 U.S. airports.
Just like in the first study, researchers found an association between higher levels of noise and increased risk of hospitalization. Specifically, a 10 decibel increase in aircraft noise in a ZIP code was associated with a 3.5 percent increase in the cardiovascular hospitalization rate. And the people living in ZIP codes with the highest airport noise (more than 55 decibels) also had the highest risk of hospitalization. The results held true even after taking into other potential risk factors, such as socioeconomic status, air pollution and proximity to roadways.
“Our results provide evidence of a statistically significant association between exposure to aircraft noise and cardiovascular health, particularly at higher exposure levels,” the researchers wrote in the study. “Further research should refine these associations and strengthen causal interpretation by investigating modifying factors at the airport or individual level.”
This isn’t the first time noise has been linked with heart risks. A study presented at the American Thoracic Society meeting earlier this year showed an association between cardiovascular disease risk and exposure to air pollution and noise pollution. And HealthDay reported on a study in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives showing that even everyday noise could cause heart rate to go up and negatively affect heart rate “variability” (the ability of the heart to adapt to environmental influences).
I really think that they should tow the real thing(AC Carrier)from Brementon and put it off shore somewhere where it would not impede on ones living standards.
Also to the North End of Whidbey where planes and jets come in for a landing at the airfield I noticed a smokey(chem trail) plane coming in for a landing.Right underneath there were cows eating Chemicalized exhaust in the grass.I sure as hell hope I am not drinking or eating anything from that farm.I am also going to go to the News Media about the health issues and take some video and put it on you tube and such.John
Mr Stevens,
I feel that the practice for the FCLPs should be in as safe a place as possible, not on an AC. Landing on a carrier is the most dangerous feat in all of aviation. But….. this practice should be on an OLF of 35,000 acres such as they wanted on the East coast, not the 667 acres of Coupeville! This lack of buffer zone is what is causing the health damage to the citizens. The navy is harming their own people, but they applied for the job, and are being paid for their injuries. Still please read the second part of this report on the damage to OUR OWN!
please read this report:
Your previous comment was not approved as you were name calling.
USN (& USAF) currently notcompliant with the following standards:
•DoD Design Criteria Std., MIL-STD-1474D, Noise Limits, page 65, para 4.2.1, Aircraft Noise
•DoDI 6055.12, Hearing Conservation Program
•OPNAVINST 5100.23F, Navy Occupational Safety and Health Program Manual
•NAVMEDCOMINST 6260.5 Occupational Noise Control & Hearing Conservation
•AFOSH STD 48-19, Hazardous Noise Program
•AFOSH STD 161-20, Hearing Conservation Program
•OSHA 29 CFR, Occupational Noise Exposure
•85 dBA, 8 hrs, 3 dB/doubling exchange rate (USN until recently was under a 4 dB rate)
USD 5 Aug 01 Memo, Dr. Gansler to ASN & ASAF: “I request you make investing in hearing protection a top(S&T) priority…and a Defense Technology Objective”
E2S2
To all the comments about the noise, the destruction of your way of life, the fear and the tears your children you claim were brought on by the Navy flying to low, You make me ashamed
you ungrateful fools,
It is that practice, both day and night that make our Navy the best in the world, you should be honored to hear the roar of the jets overhead, I go out side whenever I hear the sound of one of our Navy jets and I feel proud,
I live in Saxon come fly over my house.
John L.
If the training @ NAS is so Vital,why don’t you get our gov’t to tow a mothballed AC Carrier from Brementon and out it offshore where it won’t impede on noise issues.they can train on thr REAL THING.Our gov’t has lots of money,they throw it @foreign countries,for foreign aid.It might be something to look into…then you can be a Hero!
Landing on an aircraft carrier should ONLY be done after huge amounts of practice on land, where the probability of saving lives is better. This practice should no more be done on a carrier than over Central Whidbey. Both are the wrong place for this kind of practice. Beale AFB, China Lake, Moses Lake, Fallon, ElCentro, the list goes on where this FCLP work should be done. NOT COUPEVILLE OLF.
Babette, depends on the weather. Also considering COER’s low credibility w/ my Navy contacts, need to document with YouTube and the like any problems w/ the OLF schedule.
I am interested in knowing more about what the trainings are for exactly: I believe that there are innocent people being affected in much more detrimental ways than just the noise from these flights. I have lived in Port Townsend for three years. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you.
Please visit our web site: citizensofebeysreserve.com and find the facts on the harm caused by these navy EA-18G jets. Thanks for wanting information. An informed citizen is the best citizen.
I live in Langley and I heard them last night(10/9/2014) in the evening till about 10pm.
Like I said before,our gov’t has enough money to sent aid to foreign countries,then our Gov’t has enough money to get a moth balled Aircraft carrier dragged up here from Bremerton and put off the coast to train on. If they crash and burn they go into the drink and no ones home.I sympathize with you people now that the growlers are here but not when you bought your homes when quieter ones were.Another thing our gov’t should do is buy everyones home from Langley Up to Oak harbor.
john
Carrier landing practice Nancy. Also for entertaining aviation geeks who celebrate when EA-18Gs light the afterburners!
It’s not like this training can come to Skagit County as I want. The commute sucks. A commute for me on a transit system with the word “bankrupt” rotating around it. I have a love/hate relationship with the news in the Federal Register that OLF Coupeville is going to stay… and I’m an aviation photographer.
If the government wants to turn Whidbey into a giant aircraft carrier, they should buy out people that didn’t sign up for “duty”. Otherwise it’s not all about pilot training, non-military people live here too. They have a right to enjoy their property and homes. BTW, it’s Santa Claus.
The EA-18G has done plenty of FCLPs at both Fallon as well as El Centro, according to COER FOIAs, so you are telling me the FOIAs were not true? Did the navy lie on another FOIA. Either that, or perhaps your facts aren’t correct? Check your facts. If you need, I can quote you chapter and verse on the FCLPs in those two places.
I agree with your assumption of the EIS decision of Record will be the navy’s “preferred option” no matter what the “test” results say. That’s a given, everyone knows that.
Your placing the fault on the County is right on, in my humble opinion.
The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the military cushion of compensation. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military does for any noise related medical problems.
We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a military organization that is a bully, as well as a very bad neighbor.
“The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the military cushion of compensation. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military does for any noise related medical problems.
We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a military organization that is a bully, as well as a very bad neighbor.”
Slight change if I may:
“The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the cushion of compensation for Beyond Stupid land use policy hurting our homes and our health. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military economic generator does for any noise related medical problems. We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a Island County real estate industry that is a bully, as well as a very bad friend to the US Navy and its servicemembers’ civilian advocates.”
Many Whidbey Island residents, and several of my friends were peacefully farming their land way before either the base or the OLF were built. Remember, many of the farms on Whidbey were started in the 1880s. That’s 60 years before the base or the OLF. And, native Americans before that. The base and the OLF are the newcomers here, and bad neighbors at that. We were here first, not the navy. The base was built on our farm land. I’ve heard plenty of story’s about the farms where the OLF is from people who were here then, before the military.
To John Stevens,
There are three John’s in this discussion: you, John with a capital J, and john with a little j. Just to clarify, I never offered any options for relocating the Navy. Regarding eminent domain, the government can and does buy out homes around airports. Your pronouncement about buyouts not happening is based on what authority?
Your rhetoric about the Navy “uber alles” is tiresome. We have heard these same arguments ad nausium. The fact is, OLF is an obsolete landing strip in a wildly inappropriate location. The Navy can and should relocate to a more appropriate area. If they can afford billion dollar destroyers, they can afford a new OLF. The real reason the Navy does not want to move the OLF is one of convenience. They want the 15 or so people who staff the facility during use to be able to go home at night. (This info comes directly from a Navy representative.).
The additional Growlers are at the request of Boeing, not the Navy. Boeing has pressured congress for the appropriations so as to keep the production line in business. As always, it is about money. First it was 22 additional growlers, now it is 36! Oh what to believe, is the Navy lying to us? If the EIS results for the additional planes (oh yah, forgot there is no completed EIS for the current planes) is a forgone conclusion, why bother. But the reality is these planes are obviously deleterious to physical, mental and psychological health. Any normal person who has not been indoctrinated into the military mindset can see that.
I appreciate your mitigation suggestions, but the only logical choice is the closure of OLF, or the creation of crash zones and a proper noise buffer around the field through eminent domain. The status quo is simply unworkable. The Navy has been and will continue to slowly ramp things up until they destroy this Island. Ask anyone who has lived here for a couple of decades and, if they are are honest, they will tell you it is noisier than ever before.
We have always said that the navy doesn’t care about the citizens of their own country. Now you agree. Like I have said before the citizens of Central Whidbey are acceptable collateral damage to the military in this area. You said, ” the navy has more important things to care about”. That is the problem. The navy has lost sight of the reason for existence, and has become a self perpetuating monster. ITs only reason for existence is to continue creating itself. We citizens are harmed, and for what?
This is a BIG point. The navy is only doing small percentage of its flights over Coupeville? That just attests to the fact that there are way too many military aircraft in our skies flying over populated areas. This flight practice should only be done over un-populated areas. The introduction and increase of the Growler aircraft has turned paradise into hell.
If you will be leading them, I would feel secure. I have full confidence that in the 11 months the OLF wasn’t used, not one pilot went without the proper training, my trust in the people working at the base is very high. And all the crews good. The navy would never sacrifice training a pilot and crew to the level required for flying. They got along then, they can get along without the OLF now. Stop the injuring of the folks on the ground. The navy can get along, and be a good neighbor, without the OLF.
Now , we’re back on subject!
My father who served in the army grew up hunting and fishing on Whidbey Island. He would roll over in his grave if he could see what the navy has done to his beloved island…he was there way before NASWI.
Also, what capacity does Mr. Stevens have to speak for the navy? Who is he paid to protect and defend? Who is paying his salary? If the answer to the last two questions are any other than the tax-paying citizens of these United States…we are in REAL trouble! That is the problem with military and government…they are like spoiled children…they forget who is working to pay the tab!
I did not make the comment about “slavery”…you are confusing me with someone else on a few of the issues. I grew up next to an Air Force base…I didn’t have any bad feelings about them…at all. My concern and dismay is not with “the troops”. My distaste is for the individuals who are making the decisions to put military training in the middle of populated areas. While you are at it maybe you can answer a question for me? Okay, if the EA 18 Growler is just the razzmatazz…how come they don’t practice at the OLF when it is foggy? The elevation of Ridgecrest is 2,290 ft. How are you supposed to fly these jets in enemy terrain? Surely you have vertical drops and all manner of unfriendly terrrain and conditions to fly under. Yes, you want a safe training area for your pilots…we do too. It is, however just as important to insure the safety of the public, The OLF is NOT located in a safe spot…period. We actually do have pilots associated with COER…they are just as baffled by the stubborness of retaining this insufficient landing strip as anyone else. In the future don’t just suppose anything. I have had to fight off gangbangers, crack dealers and sexually harassing illegals that were illegally living next to my home…all while my husband travelled for his work (and paid taxes for that joy ride you are having up there). I literally had to walk around with a shot gun over my shoulder to protect my daughter…I know a little about combat….and all that in the good ole US of A!
John Stevens,
Your arrogance is quite something . A perfect example of the codecending military mindset toward civilians. It’s not all about you and your war machines.
To correct you once again, Liz made no comment about slavery. At least try to make an attempt at accuracy if you are going to bloviate all over this website.
“If these jets are so amazing (paraphrased) ‘how come they don’t practice at the OLF when it is foggy?'” Thank you Liz for showing exactly how little you know about what you are arguing against with just one statement. “The OLF is NOT located in a safe spot…period.” This should read “the homes immediately surrounding the OLF are not built in a safe spot…period” since the OLF was there long before those sub divisions. Lastly, please refrain from saying the pilots are taking “joy rides” on your tax dollars. While the flights can be enjoyable and rewarding they are anything but joy rides and every flight serves a purpose wether it is apparent to you or not.
It is amazing how two descriptive words can set Mr. Stevens off on yet another rant. The display of his prejudices and small mindedness only exemplifies the arrogance and narcissism of people, like him, who are corrupted by their own self righteousness.
It never in a million years would have occurred to me to question the actions of the military as I grew up with it in close proximity. After the summers of 2011 & 2012 my understanding of the military actions changed. The flights over our homes were vicious air raids. These flights were completely un-forgivable. When I called the air base and spoke to a Mr. Church his words were “We really nailed you guys!”. I think that the navy needs more accountability for their actions. Common sense is not keeping pace with technology. Just because these jets were made doesn’t make them okay. Brad, your comment in itself is an admission that the OLF is no longer safe. You are accusing the homes around the OLF of not being safe. The horse is out of the barn, Brad…the homes are there.
That is so sad. Too many hours of this horrible, shreaking, deafening noise. What is wrong with Ault Field that they need to spend almost 8 hours flying in Coupeville?
The flight pattern seems to have changed. The jets used to be close, but they are taking a wider swing now and flying directly over my property. Another example of the Navy doing whatever they please. I guess I am now in a crash zone, oh forgot, there are no crash zones at OLF. Let’s see, are there any houses directly under final approach and departure at Ault Field. No!!! Thanks Navy for your blatant attack on my health and sanity.
They do it because they can. Somewhere along the way people’s rights were taken away….and they are going to have to fight really hard to get them back. I have left the island because I cannot live under these air raids. I will however, continue to work towards getting this situation remedied and I hope you will too. Write your congressman and senators and if they don’t respond…don’t re-elect them. That is the clearest message that you can send them. There needs to be a LOT more control over the military and how what they do effects the citizenry.
The difference is that the OLF, the proximity to unprotected humans is so great that the noise from the Growlers is causing deadly harm to living things. At Ault Field, there is a buffer, so the navy is mainly harming their own. Both are dispicable.
Make sure to come to the noise meeting at the Greenbank Progressive Clubhouse Thursday at 7:00 It’s behind the Greenbank Store at Bakken and Firehouse. You will hear things that curl your hair they are so bad. The navy is harming us more than you realize.
Lots of optimism at the Greenbank meeting tonight with so many committed to a goal of a positive solution to the militarization of the Pacific Northwest. The U. S. Navy has terrorized all areas surrounding NAS Whidbey and Coupeville OLF. The noise is incompatible with quality of life.
We are just rejoicing for the folks living off island. They finally get a chance to partake in the scoping process. The last series of scoping meetings, they were totally left out! No arrogance intended at all. There are three scoping meeting slated for this area, Coupeville High School Commons area Tuesday October 28, 4:00-8:00. Oak Harbor, Wednesday October 29, Oak Harbor Elks Lodge, Anacortes Thursday October 30 at the High School.
Please join us and attend the meeting of your choice. Make your voice heard.
Residents of Camano Island are seriously impacted by the Navy Noise; we’re just east of Coupeville, for those who don’t know geography. We are directly in the flight path of much of the activity, particularly squadron relocations late at night that last for hours and make it impossible to sleep.
Everyone seems focused on the “local noise”, but what about the countless flights over Olympic National Park? No one seems to care that these planes are polluting a National Heritage Site, one of America’s greatest places, what used to be one of the best human noise-free sites left. We hike these wilderness trails and are now ALWAYS greeted with LOW-flying planes going along the ridgelines flying like they’re spying on us. They’re ‘saving America’ only to have these kids fly circles over Olympic? They’re destroying our heritage in the process. Stop flights over Olympic NP NOW.
They’ve been flying pretty regularly over Sequim for the past couple of months. Sounds like the citizens here should be invited to take part in the process as well. LaConner should also be included. It gets pretty loud over there.
I live in Port Townsend. The growler noise is very disturbing to me. Especially at night when I am trying to sleep. I always think for what it would be like to live in a war zone. Not a comforting thought.
This summer I was in Winthrop in late August and at Klaloch, on the coast in Sept. Growlers disrupted my peaceful vacation in both places.
let’s work towards PEACE in the world rather than practicing for war.
Does this make all the people living in the war zone that the navy has created in Washington the “bad” ones? The navy should practice in areas that they have already desolated such as China Lake and the desert near Fallon. There is clear evidence that shows that the actions of the navy ARE harming people. Many, many studies have been done to show the health problems caused by the very activities that the navy is doing. We are being harmed by our own military. Denial just isn’t working.
By practicing for war, one is sure to eventually engage in war, necessary or not. How many of the wars since WWII have been declared by congress? Zero! How many of those wars have been truly necessary? Debatable, but the expense of blood and treasure does not seem to solving any of our problems. Indeed, one of the side affects has been to create new problems, one being the Navy’s Growler assault on the citizens of Whidbey Island.
I live here in Langley.I can hear the growlers here, not too bad though.I feel sorry for you folks up past Greenbank.Your stuck, how will you ever sell your home.even a deaf person will feel the shake rattle and roll.My house goes on the market after the 1st of the year even if they don’t get 39 more growlers and cease ops @ NAS.to be honest I dislike Gov’t here.to sell your house Island county taxes a portion of sales price.then you got to have your septic taken care of.good idea,but I think unfair to the seller.this is the only place I have heard of such a thing.I’ve lived all over this country.
Can’t wait to get off this rock and to better weather.Good luck to you people on the north end.
Hey Babette, oh joy, EA-18Gs w/ afterburners for Christmas!! If you choose to live there and you don’t love airplanes, well then ask Santa for a new home. Frankly you sound just like a Santa Clara 49ers fan moving next to CenturyLink Field.
In case you didn’t notice by now: EA-18Gs are awesome. EA-18Gs are loud. EA-18Gs should overfly every single Seahawks home game in full afterburner. EA-18Gs should give rides to OLFers – OLF Coupeville’s “12th Man”.
I’ve seen your comments like this several times now and I’ve got to speak up. There may be nothing more mean-spirited than suggesting someone should leave their home. Lots of these people have already had to leave to save the health and sanity of their family. You must know the value of a home – the dreams it represents, the effort working and saving for years, the time it takes to move and make it a personal place, the care required to customize it for a family, the challenge on occasion to make the monthly payments, the equity that is counted on to be there to take care of expenses in later life. There must be a better way to get what you want than taunting people who are losing their most important possession. Especially since the meanness won’t accomplish anything, really. Frankly, you sound just like . . .
Here’s my submission to the Forest Service, Kilmer, Cantwell and Murray. I essentially submitted your URGENT UPDATE: ELECTROMAGNETIC WARFARE over OLYMPIC NATIONAL PARK, edited (spell and grammar check) and revised slightly…feel free to copy… THANK YOU!
To: U.S. Forest Service November 19, 2014
“Caring for the land and serving the people.”
To Whom It May Concern:
Regarding the U.S. Navy’s intention to use the Olympic National Park, and thus the Olympic Peninsula as training grounds for their electromagnetic radiation emissions mobile units and Growler flight pathways, here are my comments and questions. Please reply.
1. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by their failure to adequately notify the public about their project. Tiny notices placed in obscure locations, and published in distant newspapers do not adequately inform the public, as Federal law requires.
Questions: Why were the communities where this testing is to be done not notified? Why were no public hearings held for the Navy’s drafting of their EA? Why were no local newspapers notified? Why were no local elected officials and/or emergency teams such as firefighters notified?
2. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not notifying or consulting with Olympic National Park as they drafted their Environmental Assessment (EA). This project will severely impact the wilderness experience for millions of visitors to the Park every year. By law, the National Park should have been consulted when the Navy was drafting their plans.
Questions: Why was the Olympic National Park not notified or consulted by the Navy during the drafting of this EA? Does the Navy have records of their consultation with the Park? If they do, why are they not available for the public to see? Isn’t if the Forest Service’s responsibility to verify this? Why hasn’t the Forest Service conducted a formal investigation of this violation?
3. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not addressing future and cumulative impacts of the project. Federal Law requires that these be fully disclosed and analyzed. The Navy states that their project aims to “accommodate growth in future training requirements”, yet they do not specifically disclose what that growth will include, nor analyze its impacts. According to the Navy’s own briefs, the interception and disabling of signals by their planes, called Growlers, plays a central role in electronic warfare training. As such, the Navy must address this very plausible escalation in their EA. All future phases of the Electronic Warfare Training Project must be fully disclosed and evaluated in full. This is Federal law. The Navy is not permitted to disclose their plans incrementally or attempt to disguise their bigger plans by a “piecemeal” approach. USFS Ranger Dean Millett has stated that he is not considering the larger plan of the Navy’s, but is limiting his “decision space” to just the use of Forest roads for the emitters. He is not considering the supersonic jets–either their noise or their radiation–in his decision.
Questions: Why is not only the Navy, but the Forest Service, narrowing their focus so dramatically, when NEPA clearly states that the entire project and its impacts need to be included? Separating out partial aspects of the bigger project, (which includes many supersonic Growler jets practicing with active attack radiation), is clearly part of the future training program and needs to be fully disclosed and analyzed. Exactly how much radiation will be projected from each of the Growler jets in one day’s training as they practice their warfare tactics? Why is the Forest Service not demanding full transparency and full disclosure as Federal law mandates? On average, how many training missions will take place per 24 hour period? How long will each Growler be airborne during training missions that fly over the Olympic National Park?
4. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not using the most recent and “best available science” in their conclusion that there will be “No Significant Impact” from their project. Their supporting science documents are weak and sorely outdated. Thousands of recent, peer-reviewed studies indicate there are very real harmful effects—both to humans and to wildlife— from man-made electromagnetic fields. The Navy sited only one very dated and narrow experiment on DNA fragmentation to justify their claim that electromagnetic radiation is harmless. (See the Navy’s EA 3.1.1.2). They have chosen to ignore thousands of rigorous scientific studies. The Navy’s EA is sorely deficient in this regard, and as such, it violates Federal law. When the public brought this serious deficiency to the attention of Ranger Millett, he replied that the Navy’s science is “good enough” for him.
Questions: Why is the Forest Service not demanding that the Navy use the most recent and best available science? Because the project will include active, focused use of electromagnetic weaponry, pointed down towards the earth, the damage to living systems will be significant. Why is the Forest Service not addressing this? Why are they allowing the Navy to manipulate the NEPA process in this manner when the flaws and deficiencies of the Navy’s EA are so blatant? Isn’t it the Forest Service’s responsibility to demand that the Navy fully disclose all impacts of this project, including the future escalation of the training? Why is the Forest Service skirting their responsibilities? Why is the Forest Service not protecting the forest and its visitors from this potentially harmful project? Isn’t it the responsibility of the Forest Service to protect the forest and its visitors from any potentially harmful project?
5. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by failing to address the impacts this electromagnetic radiation will have on bees, butterflies, birds and bats as well as a multitude of other small animals and insects. Because the current worldwide Bee Colony Collapse is such a threat to our food security, the President of the United States has called for all government agencies, including the Department of Defense and the Department of Agriculture, to make the protection of pollinators a critical priority. Scientists have found that man-made electromagnetic radiation radically disrupts bees’ ability to navigate and find their way back to their hives. Also the Navy’s assessment does not address the harm this radiation causes to amphibians. These omissions in the Navy’s EA render the document sorely deficient. As such, the Navy’s EA is a violation of NEPA.
Questions: Why is the Forest Service not requiring the Navy to address the impacts of this project on bees, birds, bats, butterflies, and other insects as well as amphibians? Numerous scientific studies document very real harm to these creatures from man-made electromagnetic fields. Why is this being overlooked? Why is the Forest Service not requiring comprehensive studies of the flora and fauna in the forests they are supposed to be protecting?
6. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not addressing at all the following areas where impacts will be experienced. Federal Law requires that the Navy fully analyzes and discloses all potential impacts—direct, indirect and cumulative— of their project. Neither the Navy nor the Forest Service is permitted to dismiss the following issues:
A. Noise from the airplanes: This was completely ignored in the Navy’s EA. The “soundscape” of Olympic National Park and the surrounding wilderness areas will be severely impacted by squadrons of supersonic jets practicing overhead most days of the year. This noise will also greatly impact thousands of citizens’ “quality of life” who are forced to live directly underneath these flight paths.
Question: How and when is this issue going to be addressed?
B. Pollution: The Navy did not address the pollution, both chemical and electromagnetic, that would be produced from the airplanes. The chemical pollution alone from just one of these jets is tremendous.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
C. Land-use, traditional use, cultural use: Since the early 1900s, these pristine coastal regions and forests have provided critical habitat and protected sanctuary for wildlife. This area, long used by millions of visitors every year for recreation, will radically be altered by the Navy’s project. The noise, the pollution, and the electromagnetic radiation would destroy any wilderness experience and severely impact recreational use in a negative way.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
D. Economic and social impacts: Visitors to the Olympic National Park are a driving force of the economies of this region. Degrading the Park, as this project threatens to do, could have a huge negative impact on the Peninsula’s economy, as families choose to go elsewhere for their vacations because of the hazards to public health and the disruptive noise. The Olympic Peninsula would also no longer be a desirable place to live, and real estate prices could plummet.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
7. If the Forest Service grants this permit, they are in violation of their own management plan, and the National Forest Management Act. The Department of Defense does not have the right to override the Forest Service’s own management plan and this Act. Electronic warfare training is not consistent with the public purposes for which national forests are reserved.
According to the US Forest Service’s own regulations, military use our public lands is not permissible if the military has other “suitable and available” lands for their proposed action. Every viable alternative needs to be considered.
Questions: The military has hundreds of thousands of “suitable and available” acres of remote lands that are used for just this kind of hazardous testing and training. Why isn’t the Navy using those lands for this project instead? Why hasn’t the Forest Service required the Navy to use these other lands that are “suitable and available”?
8. Finally, the Forest Service’s own management policy states that when considering issuing such a permit, “the interests and needs of the general public shall be given priority over those of the applicant.” The public has spoken loudly about this issue and have communicated clearly what their needs and desires are, and continue to do so.
Question: Why are the needs and desires of the general public NOT being given priority over the desires of the Navy?
Sincerely,
Lois Barnett
619 Clay St #314
Port Townsend, WA 98368
360.385.6877
Are you even aware that your words show you to be a bully? These folks have a genuine problem. By belittling them on this public forum of veritable strangers, you only show visitors your noisy preference to flaunt mean-spiritedness instead of simply remaining silent. I came here a stranger seeking info. I leave here with two things I didn’t expect. First, is your name. Second, is worrying if there are other, more immediate things in your life, that actually deserve compassion, but which you find more pleasure in belittling.
Only the persons in uniform were actual “Navy.” Most of those there to answer questions were civilians who work for the Navy and I talked to a fellow who said he is from General Dynamics and contracts with the Navy. There was another woman I overheard telling some folks she was a contractor but she disappeared before I could ask her “with whom?” Corporations are obviously very involved in all of this and I would like to know just how and how much.
John, your aircraft is just a big toy, and you a glorified bus driver. Get over yourself! The people of Whidbey want peace and quiet, not money as you allege. The navy has plenty of other, more appropriate places they can do their job.
Due to the lies, innuendo, name calling, and arrogance shown by certain commenters, they will no longer be posted. This space is for comments, not name calling.
Due to the arrogance, name calling, bullying, and general disrespectful conduct of certain commentators, their comments will no longer be posted. When a civil discussion can be maintained, posts will be posted.
By the Navy’s own count, there were 377 attendees at this Port Townsend scoping meeting. Obtained from the two girls with the clickers at the door just before they left. While the call is that the Navy HEAR us, there is absolutely NO indication that they care what we’re saying. That was very evident from the response of the main Navy spokesperson who had flown in from Virginia…that they would be doing this regardless of what anyone said. And, many of the people presenting were either civilian Navy or private contractors who were sent in to stand at the tables. For more background and many links on this issue, go to https://www.facebook.com/protectolypen
I doubt they will follow this schedule. Supposedly they were not supposed to fly this entire week and its been non-stop instead. This is supposed to be peaceful living, I had more quiet living in Everett by Paine Field.
I always supported the military until I started reading the arrogant, entitled comments by members regarding this issue. If someone would apologize for inconveniencing people by busting windows, keeping people awake at 1 a.m. who need to go to school or work early in the morning, but point out that the exercises are an integral part of their training, it would be one thing. But to call people uneducated, say they don’t care what others think, just puts me off the military completely. We pay your salaries, we pay for your expensive jets, we pay for your veterans’ hospitals, and we lack money for important things like education and infrastructure in this country because of it. Talk about entitled.
Please stop ruining our natural areas. I went to deception pass yesterday and it was amazing, but the plane noise kind of ruined it.Also i’m concerned about fly overs of Olympic national park, for wild life and people alike. We go to these areas to get away from noise,the city and enjoy the piece and quite of nature and not having to wear earmuffs to prevent hearing damage, in a wilderness area! Please figure out a way to keep natural areas quite, but still run your operation. I appreciate all the good you guys have done over the years ans hope we can create a win, win situation for the navy and nature lovers and I do not want people who enjoy being part of the military to have to drop out or not be able to join and fallow there passion and nature lovers and wild life loosing out.
Thanks
Harrison
Thanks for your helpful words Mr.Stevens! Gee golly I will get right on that! Something tells me you are okay with loud jets and the Navy taking over the islands. Those of us former military did not choose to live on a military base again. I have empathy for you though, sounds like you only have skills that are dependent on the Navy expanding their empire.
They changed their mind, as they do so often. They may be not telling the truth, also as they do so often. It’s the navy, what do you expect? The truth?
All I was trying to do is help everyone. Were else could we move the military base? If we move it the Olympic peninsula we will affect our national parks. If you feel that strong, I know of one idea. The commercial jets have legally required mufflers on there jet engines and military should do the same, imagine a 747 with out a muffler!!! But here is one thing, what if the military was gone and we were attacked by terrorists or a war started, then what? I’m on your side tough, visiting deception pass it was so loud, I had to were ear muffs waiting for the bus just outside the park. What should happen for sure in the military should have the same noise regulations as passenger airports do. What do think we should do.
At the very least Noise noise regulations would really help.
Harrison,
We do not advocate not having the Growlers as one of the jets we need to defend our country. We are just against where these are posted. They belong in an area where there is not the collateral damage to civilians. Send them to the desert.
Thank you for your concern. COER does not advocate closing the base, just moving the Growlers to a better place, one where the noise caused by the EA-18G Growler does not create the collateral damage to civilian population as is happening now.
Our country must have a military, no argument there. Where they are is the contention
Thank you Jim! Also dear COER…I am going to have to disagree with you on one item. The only relief from these excessive technological “experiments” in the beautiful Pacific Northwest and Whidbey Island is to close NASWI. This base should simply be moved (with the Growlers) to an area that has been already devastated by military training….damage control! Fallon, Nevada and China Lake come to mind.
I am sittings as I have most of the day in front of my screen waiting for some sensible response to what has been god awful day of enduring the noise
I live on the very most southern end of Lopez Island- I arrived here exactly two years ago December 27th anticipating retreat
Your accuracy of design implementation results and then the human and environment abandon is vivid- as so many written accounts of thought or plea
My mind today stretched to the imagined whole picture being an artist deep thinker and beyond sensitive concluded nothing can prevent what is in our path. To suggest the spotted Owl as an endangered species is not even good enough to start with as I am thinking suicide when my life and health are impacted so severely. I came here totally invested – I have what to leave with and how to ?
Today the planes were active from 6 am till 10pm growlers starting at 2:30 pm and non stop till 10pm as possibly they just shut down
My entire body is pulsing with frayed nerve sensation. I keep thinking of hell . That I watched the resident bald eagles fly unison today to one as the growler flew over the male flew off in jared fear.
That is shocking. we have the right to wilderness and peace and quit. First they ruin parks in whibey island and peaceful, low populated amazing San Juan islands and now want to ruin our national park that supposed to be protected form fly overs. Send the growlers to a underpopulated place away from outdoor recreation such as skiing and hiking is eastern Washington, were they bother anyone. We already have lost a lot of peaceful, quit areas to live and play, we shouldn’t let the navy take even more from us, especially on public lands!!!!
You are not alone….Many, many of us feel or have felt the same way. When you feel this way you have to call a friend right away. Many people are just feeling trapped. Work with others to find a way to make escape routes for yourselves when you are under these air raids…I know all to well how overwhelming they are. Feel a collective hug from all of us and know that we care about you! Hang in dear girl! You can NOT let this get the better of you. CAll your politicians, COER hotline and anybody that you can think of to let out your frustration. You have a ton of dedicated indivduals working to mitigate this situation….Again, HANG IN THERE!
Wow that is shocking. We need to reduce pollution and fuel consumption, not increase it. Not only is noise pollution hurting people and and wild life, now air pollution is doing the same thing. We should reduce noise and use military bio fuels to make this planet a better place. Also the military should have some rules and restrictions as far as were they can set up operation and noise restrictions and not just be able to do what they want. I appreciate the military and all they do and all they have done, thank you, but at least respect people and wildlife and wilderness areas.
This is Nora
You must be aware they are flying over my home this evening 1/7/15 literally over this site as they did yesterday but tonight none stop over my home
But to express feeling the trap besides being trapped That what ever sensor radar is being used is being felt in my body I actually can tell from a distance when they start up this radar before a plane is near
Tonight the radius they are flying over me the time frame is about every two to five minutes
I return to my appeal of help and how is this possible to void out the people under their path
Please call in the FBI if that is what is being suggested by your post today
I have sent of three different ”flyers” to everyone I know to sign your petitions to make comments to educate that is over 100 people around the USA and some abroad
I was told to go sit on their runways arm in arm and get arrested but I am ill so pass this along to get media involved sit on their runways
As I said before, can’t that navy find a empty non wilderness field in eastern Washington were they will not bother people or wild life at all. The people in the navy do great thongs ( thank you) But how about a win win situation. If anyone on this site wants to respond to my opinion, feel free.
Please be aware that there is a Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/KilmerWatch devoted to Legislative Watch District 6 WA. If you are interested in following his votes and posting about them, please LIKE the page and then go to the “get notifications” under the liked ikon and check it.
Another beautiful day in victoria and gardening season is starting. Usually I head out and enjoy the peaceful calm of my garden and love sharing it with the soft sounds of my chickens and the local bird population. Today the only sounds I heard were the loud, low, ominous rumbling sounds of growler jets coming from the Widbey Island Airforce base. I have been hearing them from inside my home for the better part of two years with recent months days the sound so loud the windows shake. Hearing them all day long as I work outside is even worse. I resent the noise pollution in my neighborhood. I fear for the lost income from tourists to our area who do not wish to be exposed to constant noise from the american military jets. My farm animals are in a constant state of adjitation as the ground shaking feels like the start of an earthquake. My distress levels are rising daily. I understand that more jets have been purchased and will be used even more frequently in this densely populated area. I find this to be completely unacceptable. I urge the US government to seriously consider the tremendous negative impact this current practice is having not only on its citizens but Canadians as well.
Thank you for asking the navy to finally provide adequate analysis of the impact their planned activities would have on the environment here on the Olympic Peninsula!
We here in Pacific Beach have been following the conversation with growing despair, and have participated in it when navy representatives came to our community. The information we’ve been given has been sadly lacking in honest information. You have the authority to demand said information and I for one very much appreciate that you are doing just that!
Our local economy has taken a hard hit in order to preserve species such as the spotted owl and is just now recovering by building a new economy on tourism. People come here “because it’s so peaceful”. Growlers overhead for up to 16 hours a day would certainly impact the peacefulness negatively. Allowing military use of this environment would make a mockery out of past efforts to protect it.
Thank you again!
sincerely,
Karin Phifer
Pacific Beach, WA 98571
The navy is going to ruin our national parks and wild life. The fly overs will hurt people and wild life alike, with the noise. The pollution from the jet exhaust will harm or kill sensitive plants that are critical to wild life. I heard earlier that the navy plans on sending ground troops in certain wilderness areas and with out notice, they can shut down access roads and hiking trials. If for example some one planed a back packing trip mounts in advance, they preserve camping sites, drive a long way to to get to the start of there trip only to find the road closed, would a huge blow to them. Our national parks our supposed to be for escaping the world, allow free access and be a safe home for wildlife. Thank you to the military for everything they have done over the decades and still doing today, but can we find a place were they can practice all they want and that will not affect people or wild life.
What is the military doing in that photo? Are those weapons? Will they harm marine life, birds and wildlife with toxins? Will the Navy bring in heavy vehicles what is their route? Are permits required from the state for the Navy to bring heavy equipment over Deception Pass Bridge? Do we need citizens to monitor activity on Deception Pass Bridge to provide witnesses to any damage? The U. S. Navy has no boundaries. What right does the Navy have to control the activities of citizens? How can the Navy justify disruption of business for ten days?
Don’t you know……. NATIONAL SECURITY. Anything can be done in the all powerful phrase NATIONAL SECURITY. If the navy can’t cover themselves any other way, they huff themselves to full height, and cry out ” IT’S FOR NATIONAL SECURITY!” So is my dog…….. B.S. navy hogwash of the first order.
Context? Proof? Not requirements, I suppose, for your organization. The bottom of the Olympic MOA airspace is 6000′. As in no lower than. You’re purposely misleading people to sign your petition. Do you realize that? I know you hate the Navy, but come on…
6,000 feet above sea level at the area they will be flying is 1,200 feet above GROUND LEVEL. The places they want to fly over are in the mountains, not at sea level. This is the figure quoted by the navy. Their words, not ours.
Don’t hate the navy, just where they want to practice.
We live on Vancouver Island, BC Canada and the noise and rumbling from aircraft on Whidby Island is disturbing and scary. We thought it was earthquakes until Whidby Island was mentioned in media. The pilots should use simulators instead. What is the reason for these flights? I have heard references to electro-magnetic radiation and even the possible involvement of H.A.A.R.P in Alaska which, if true, is hardly reassuring.
What about the orca whales and other wildlife? 1,300 gallons of fuel per plane is ridiculous and falls on our drinking water, lakes and streams. Between this and sonar games from Navy vessels, our resident orcas hardly stand a chance.
Please think of our planet for future generations (your children).
Thank you, Leah and Marty
Now there are 5 of these proposals with the new one being the 7 escort (Nuclear Submarines) ships that will be birthed inside Ediz Hook where there is a wonderful artifical reef.
Thanks Coupeville for being a COER pet. Duly noted is, “we request that there be no increase in the number of flights/hours of flight allowed under the current EA”.
Jeez. Am I missing something? Did he not address anywhere in this letter how we would like the navy just to train elsewhere? Not over our national forest and park?
The jets are so wide spread now, they are flying over Burien 10 miles south of Seattle were I live. Can’t they st lest fly higher over head and have similar noise restrictions as the commercial airports do?
I think those are all great ideas you have. But i’m concern still about the navy blocking off wilderness access, ruining the silence that makes those wilderness places so special and wild life, so please send operations to eastern Washington. Like Nancy Botta said I agree the training should be some elsewhere and Nancy we should have them train in a abandoned field in eastern Washington that is possibly 100,000 acres, that way the navy can spread out over a massive area, away from people and wildlife. We should thank the navy for all they do, but make a win, win situation.
Derek Kilmer was Norm Dicks’ hand picked successor. And Norm Dicks was fully on board with both the Navy and Boeing. So it will take a lot more to move Kilmer to oppose what the Navy wants to do. This letter simply restates what anyone who went to the town halls already knows. He has helped us be heard. But that’s not enough. Far from it.
Thank you navy all you have done, but please do not ruin the wilderness. We have already had enough wilderness destroyed and we do not need anymore. We go there for the peace and quit and freedom to use any trial anytime we want. Please don’t tear up roads and make them unsafe and fill the national park with load ruin it and ruin it, finally stay on trial or road and leave no trace so we can enjoy the park fro years to come. I can’t believer you ignored public comments.
THANK YOU, CITIZENS OF EBEY’S RESERVE, FOR YOUR ELOQUENCE IN DETAILING OUR COMMUNITY CONCERN AND FOR HOLDING OUR FELLOW CREATURES OF LAND, SEA, AIR WITHIN THIS PAPER!
WE HAVE LONG HELD THAT THIS TYPE OF TRAINING NEEDS TO BE SOME WHERE ELSE ~ WHERE IT WON’T IMPACT COMMUNITIES OR WILDLIFE/HABITAT! THE KIND OF ‘PROTECTION’ THE NAVY WANTS TO PURSUE ON THE OLYPEN
IS CONTRARY TO QUIET ENJOYMENT OF OUR PRISTINE WILDERNESS, WHICH IS WHY MOST ALL OF US ARE HERE!
THE WHALES, OWLS, ELK, TREES ARE ALL FINDING A VOICE IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, TOO, WITH UNESCO’S RECENT
CONCERN AND INVOLVEMENT.
THANK YOU FOR A CONTINUED, ON-GOING PATHE TO PEACE FULL RESOLUTION FOR ALL WHO LIVE BENEATHE THE
AIRWAYS OF THIS MONUMENTAL DISTURBANCE!!
PERHAPS WE MIGHT ALSO ADDRESS THE RECENT RADICAL INFLUX OF CHEM-TRAILS IN OUR SKIES, TOO!?!
Great piece of writing. I’d send it also to major media:: Seattle Times, NPR, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times. Maybe Crosscut.com for local coverage. Good luck. We may need luck.
Thankyou DNR! Very grateful, and reassuring that you are representing the welfare of our natural environment. Brings hope that not everything is working against citizens and preservation of forests, and all the life that live there.
The Navy AND all government agencies involved with permitting this travesty have lost their moral compass. The areas on the Olympic Peninsula involved include UNESCO World Heritage Sites and marine and wildlife sanctuaries that are protected by LAWS passed by Congress. To allow the Navy to break laws in the name of ‘Homeland Security’ is absurd. There are other desert areas they can practice in/over, if they must, that will NOT endanger marine life, flora and fauna of protected sanctuaries! The Navy has been killing whales, dolphins and other marine life all over the world for years (read War of the Whales) with no repercussions so now they have puffed out their chest to do whatever they want with impunity. THIS IS ILLEGAL AND WRONG! The military is bankrupting our country and now they are starting to destroy our protected sanctuaries and World Heritage Sites! This is NOT in the interest of America or of common sense – to destroy to protect.
Thank you Jan, I think since Ebey’s NHR includes OLF Coupeville & Fort Ebey we should park one of these emitters at Ebey’s NHR. You know, during an OLF Day :-). You’re on the Ebey’s Board, you should love OLF more.
Also park other emitters in Oak Harbor, Sedro-Woolley, Mukilteo, Seattle and such. If they’re so harmless, what’s the harm in training in urban environments too?
Steve,
OLF is part of the Ebey’s NHR. For instance, http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/ebla/adhi/chap8.htm , “The Navy’s Outlying Field (OLF) on Smith Prairie lies near Highway 20 at the southeastern entrance to the reserve. It includes a practice landing area the size and shape of an aircraft carrier deck. During the comprehensive planning stage of 1978-1980, Reed Jarvis and the citizen’s advisory committee identified Smith Prairie as an important entrance point to the reserve.”
Also senior NAS Whidbey Island officials concur.
Furthermore, it would be very difficult for DAHP & the Ebey’s NHR to influence OLF in any way otherwise. Can’t have it both ways Steve, so figure it out. At Ebey’s NHR’s own risk….
National Parks should not be used for military testing. The Navy should be prohibited from encroaching on the peace and tranquility of Olympic National Park.
I’ve called your COER number to let them know I’ve called to report noise twice today. They were disruptive at 3 PM in PT and now it is 9 PM and the noise is deafening form inside my home. 9 PM!
The Growlers from Whidbey Island Naval base are the loudest experience I have encountered in my life. The old Prowlers were easy compared to them. In my yard, on the beach in Port Townsend or on Whidbey Island the sound is completely overwhelming. They often fly all day and night leaving no escape. And now the Navy wans to add 36 more and fly throughout the Olympic Peninsula! Olympic National Park is a world Heritage site, a major tourist destination (as is Port Townsend) and jets are routed around it to respect this and the one square inch of silence. Last summer while hiking the Elwah and Sol Duc Rivers I heard and recorded Growlers flying overhead day and night throughout the 5 days we were there. This is inconsistent with the use and intent of these natural areas. To add 36 more and practice war games throughout the Peninsula abandons the mission of intent the National Forest Service is bound to protect. Please protect the Olympic Peninsula from overwhelming noise pollution for the benefit of all. Thank you.
Please I am as patriotic as the next person but the sounds of all these jets for hours and hours on end, makes me feel like I live in a war zone minus the actual bombs. Please cut down on some of the practices. Thank you.
If they do not fly today due to bad weather, doesn’t that just mean they will fly longer hours tomorrow? Or are they generally sticking to their announced schedule? Does anyone know?
I am asking this question because I try to schedule my activities, especially outdoor activities like gardening, around the announced OLF schedule.
I think something else is going on. They were still flying at Ault Field! Hmmmmmmmm could it be the Rick Larsen visit Tuesday, and the navy doesn’t want a bunch of upset Coupeville folks at 6:30 at the Rec Hall? They will deny this, of course HOGWASH!
Please stop this absolutely unnecessary torture of the marine and land life of the San Juan Islands. This is causing extreme mental stress for the residents and driving tourism away. I have been a frequent visitor to the San Juan Island but plan to stay away until this activity stops!
Trying to fast track this set of actions is not going to fly. Too many citizens are concerned about the environmental impact and the loss of the quality of life in the area. Just slow down a minute…
never trust anything they say, as they lie a lot.
it is their way.
they don’t like my Prius, either. if you don’t
believe me, just read the Truthout article…
My wife and I are currently traveling to try to find a place to move due to jet noise at OLF. I must admit it is hard to find a nicer place to live than Whidbey, but the navy has left us with no choice. When we talk to people in our travels and mention why we are looking for a new home, to a person they express disbelief that the navy is allowed to conduct operations over people’s homes. We have also seen endless tracts of badlands that the navy could practice in and affect no one. What is wrong with our politicians and all the pro navy people that they deny the obvious? As usual it’s all about money. Maybe they should pay for moving costs!
I agree about plenty of wide open space close by in eastern washington,south whidbey island would be great for you 2, no jet nios and still be on the island
I’ve asked about moving the bouncing to Skagit Regional – closer to home for me and the bus route not held hostage by the state legislature & fiscal mismanagement….
Would require:
*Congressional support
*2nd EIS
*Purchase of aviation easements & eminent domain as COMPENSATION
*Settling litigation
*New construction of barriers and lighting and possibly more – requiring congressional approval
Take around 8-10 years and SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS.
Then you wonder why I propose eminent domain for Central Whidbey? ALL Americans who DEPEND on OLF can COMPENSATE folks who need to MOVE from OLF. Tell me where I’m wrong here….
So, more late night noise EXCEPT on Tuesday when they will stop mid afternoon. I guess they don’t want to interrupt their pet congressman while he is speaking.
Why are marine mammals protected there and we are not protected here by the National Environmental Protection Act (NEPA)? If the Navy followed the law here, we would be.
When the law was not followed there, people donated and there was a lawsuit.
There are no deep pockets in the 98239 zip code where the jets fly 250 feet overhead and the average price for a home is $250k, with a few waterfront homes included in that average.
There is no enforcement of NEPA except through a law suit. There is no better organization to manage donations toward legal action than COER. You have no idea how hard they work for nothing, and how much they put out for each donated dollar.
NASWI Ault Field is doing FCLP here again today on runway 14 making a hard left turn and going right over our house and toward deception pass bridge the house is shaking.
we are having to leave our home once again today.
the NAVY/ NASWI is making our family homeless when we have a home to live in.
I made the same suggestion to the base!! They said that they didn’t have a pool due to fiscal constraints!!!! what a lie! how does a navy base not have a pool to train SAILORS how to swim!!! that would be like army base saying they had no land. that makes no since…..so they are obviously lying to me and don’t care about our complaints or suggestions. the lady went on to say that the only pool there was used to train all the pilots on the west coast how to swim. ALL LIES!! how could they think that we would belive that the ENTIRE amount of pilots on the west coast would have to use ONE POOL. AND THATS IF YOU BEILIVE THAT PILOTS NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SWIM!! THEY ARE FLYING (OVER MY HOUSE) NOT SWIMMING. The navy is SO SHADY!!
The headline complaint is going to require specific YouTube proof to the exact moment the Congressman said it. It’s serious.
But I’ve heard EA-18G noise lots. I love it, it’s A sound of freedom.
If you choose to remain under EA-18G flight patterns, no pity. If you’re kept there against your will, make that your next blog post how. Quit stirring the pot, start seasoning the soup.
Joe,
Watch the video on the home page of our web site. Larsen does admit to never coming here to witness the tragedy he is responsible for. Many homes are for sale, with no takers, so the people ARE held captive.
I can NOT believe this! This is ridiculous! Bomb practice in Crescent Harbor!!!! This is simply wrong. The environmental impact WILL BE EXTENSIVE in an area that is struggling in the 1st place! Please reconsider and don’t do this!!!! We must protect our earth. You don’t protect “the People” by destroying the earth!!!!!!! For God’s Sake STOP!!!!
The Navy is a juggernaut, which is a disturbing word defined as “a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution.” I think Larson was naive about the attention Navy officials gave him. He formed a relationship that gave him new power and beltway creds, which eventually brought the Growlers to Whidbey. In stereotypical governmental fashion, he has learned well how to speak disingenuously with citizens who have organized to protest after effects.
Bringing Growlers to Whidbey is a done deal. Navy officials have moved on to other, more pressing issues. That includes figuring out to beat the courts who have recently denied them war games that will harm a significant percentage of west coast marine mammals. I imagine Navy officials wondering among themselves, “what is it about the west coast, that they prefer trees and whales over a strong secure nation?”
Try to imagine what a fly must hear, on the wall in the room where Larson sits with these military guys. Perhaps he pleads with them to undue some small but meaningful part of what, together, they have brought to all of us who live here. If so, the juggernaut guys probably start looking at their watches. Knowing that he must face his constituents, he then asks them for crumbs that sound meaningful even if they are not. Together they all dream up hush houses, landing gear, and chevrons.
We’ve been a long time getting to this state of affairs. I remember how we were told that the North Vietnamese were going to steal the Chevrolets out of our garages (w help from the Chinese Communists, of course)–and that didn’t materialize, even though we were soundly defeated by barefoot, ill equipped Cong soldiers.
Since then, we have been on an upward trajectory toward more “defense” spending, more use of military to intervene and subvert governments and peoples–a pretty shameless record. And what Eisenhower warned us about: the Military Industrial Complex taking over our thinking and economy…well, that has all come true. Our DOD has become a Department of Perpetual War.
Trillions spent for defense, but we don’t feel secure. More weapons. More weapons. More expenditures. Now we are planning to “pivot to the east”–which means we need more enemies in order to terrorize our citizens through the media, as well as keep the defense industries (located in almost EVERY state right now) humming.
So we lose control of our budget; have already lost control of our democracy; have certainly become the most war-like nation on earth: a superpower that lives in fright, that seeks another enemy as a fix for its spending addiction, and on and on.
The last time we won a war was WWII. Since then, we have destroyed people, cultures and leaders, but have not secured a lasting peace anywhere we have been involved in. And what we learn is that the military is our least effective weapon when it comes to managing affairs. The least effective.
We do face an “existential” threat: but the threat comes from ourselves, from our foolish belief that the noise we hear from the Growlers is the “sound of freedom.”
Please provide your civilian neighbors with notice of flight cancellations. We live directly under the jets, just two to four hundred feet further away from the blasts of their engines than the crew on the deck of a carrier. Like the carrier crew, we limit our plans to the Navy Flight Schedule. We ensure we have noise protection ready, clear the deck, hunker down, and ensure the safety of bystanders – especially our kids, elderly, and pets. Or, we leave. Just like the crew, there things we do specifically because we know the planes will be flying.
Similarly, there are many things we would like to do if we knew the jets would not be flying. When flights are cancelled, the crew goes home or on to other activities. We cannot.
And at the end of the day, often delaying bedtime expecting sleep to be interrupted, we count our losses of what we could have done. You can imagine the range of emotions.
I am sure there are many reasons why providing this information would be difficult. Protecting the nation is a priority. But perhaps there is someone on staff that could take this on and develop a plan, working through the obstacles until it gets done. You have military personnel, active and retired, who live in these neighborhoods. They would benefit, too.
Whatever the effort required, the benefits to this community would be enormous. We need those precious hours and days and the freedom to do what we choose.
Please help us. We deserve the same days off from flight duty as the crews.
Myself and my family live in Oak harbor and would love to extend an invitation for Rick Larson to come and try to enjoy a barbeque at my son’s house on Wilson rd. northeast of the base. While the jets are flying…
I attempted to publicly invite Congressman Growler to enjoy a OLF BBQ at OLF with OLFers like Growler Joe and cheer when the afterburners go on, but the Whidbey Examiner decided to censor the request.
You guys should realize with a lot of change of duty assignemnts, now is the time to sell your homes to Navy families and flee from this… “toxic sound freedom hazard” :-). Maybe I should ask Congressman Growler if he concurs?
Congressman Larsen has attended a Seahawks game with 130+ db sustained vice 112 db at 1/2 second peak (which he can view on the COER youtube video at the soccer park).
Our community of 220 families have 2x the FCLP volume as OLF – no issues other than the once-in-a-while annoyance with late flights. We all know what we signed up for – and all received the substantial noise discount. A few want their cake and eat it too – recommend those may consider going back to Seattle or San Francisco. We support the military on this island.
Scott Smith,
As you know, the sound level depends on where you live. You didn’t say where you live. You may live far enough away to dampen the sound greatly, so there is no comparison. If you live within several hundred yards of an active runway, things would be different. You and some others support the military on this island. Many People in Coupeville, Port Townsend, Port Angeles, Sequim, the San Juan Islands, Forks, LaConner, Camano Island support the military, but also want the Growlers gone from this region. We want the Growlers gone. We support the military, and want the base kept open, and the Growlers gone! The 1700 civilians (not 30,000) whose jobs depend on the military will still be working at the base long after the Growlers are gone.
[We support the military, and want the base kept open, and the Growlers gone!]
Some COER members have stated to close the entire base.
If you remove the Growlers, the base will close – Navy does not keep an NAS half full.
If you close OLF, the base will close – no other major NAS has only 1 active runway.
We know what COER is doing behind the scenes – colluding with the Port Townsend elitists and select Govt Officials to close the base. Its clear as daylight.
Not to be callous or cruel but anybody want to discuss eminent domain? A new OLF would require a second EIS, and years of mitigation & construction before OLF Coupeville could be closed. Eminent domain would be one and done.
.
I would strongly encourage COER members to consider the options before you and make the fact-based correct decision or decisions rather than continue down the emotional path that has got you… nothing but grief and more jet noise.
When the Coupeville OLF was not used a while ago, that argument was laid to rest. The navy got along just fine without it. No need to build another OLF, just shut the Coupeville OLF. Move the Growlers elsewhere. No big deal, it has been done already. No money spent at all. No need to spend any.
As a person who never knew about the Navy jets before I moved to Camano Island, I was shocked one day when it sounded like a 747 flying into my home. However I now realize what I experience on a day to day basis is nothing compared to what people in Whidbey are harassed with each day. Thank you for making this video to show how close and how loud it really is for the citizens. My heart goes out to the family. Please make more videos of others and their daily experience. It really helped me understand how sad this situation really is for everyone involved. This type of training belongs in a desert, not above private citizens on a beautiful island.
Really you move to an island that is famous for it’s Navy base and plane’s. Then start crying like you’re two year’s old about noise. MOVE not just off the island. But out of this country. You all are cry baby’s that think they are entitled to everything you want. I hope your case gets thrown out.
I too live right under the flight path of the Growlers and I was beyond shocked at the level of noise these planes make. People talk disclosures but honestly there are no amount of descriptions that can accurately describe the level of noise or fear you experience when one of these planes come less than 200 or so feet over your roof. If I had to accurately describe it, it would be picture yourself in a city in the Middle East where a plane is coming at you and you are about to be bombed…that pretty much sums it up!
[…] ### Copies of the Motion for Preliminary Injunction and supporting declarations are available upon request and can be viewed on COER’s home page HERE . An eight-minute interview with a family impacted by the Growler operations can be viewed at: https://player
When you moved to the area, didn’t you sign a document stating you were aware of loud noise of aircraft? I lived in Oak Harbor right in the flight path and I lived on a carrier underneath the flight deck – I think you folks are complaining about something you had control over when you moved to Whidbey Island / Oak Harbor.
What is the Navy protecting if it is willing to destroy the Olympic Nation Park and the quality of life of Americans living in the Pacific North West?
This is not a smart Navy training plan, this is the navy being arrogant, thoughtless and very destructive. We are all good Americans in this.. The Navy’s training plans in thiis instance is thoughtlessly destructive in this action.
What is the Navy protecting if it is willing to destroy the Olympic National Park and the quality of life for thoughs Americans that live here.
It sounds as if we live in a war zone… Is the American Navy at war with Americans living in the Pacific Northwest.
Congratulations on the sale of your home in Coupeville. Hopefully, you will have peace and enjoyment in your next location. You did the smart thing for
the welfare of all involved. It must have been sad leaving such a lovely house.
So let me get this straight – the Navy won’t speak to you, so you’re going to ask them to tell you the “technical specifications” of their electronic attack weaponry, the most classified field of warfare in the entire DOD? You’ll get nothing. No technical specs, because that information isn’t publicly releasable. You better find a pilot to give you classified information because otherwise, you’re asking the DOD to tell you classified information. Surely, your attorney told you the NEPA doesn’t grant you access to classified information and programs, right? Only Growler pilots and the folks who work on those weapons know how the systems work. You better call Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning. You can share the prison cell right next to them!
Oh, and by the way, this paper was written in 1998. Much cooler stuff out there now. Enjoy the noise in January. Just for you, I hope they use extra afterburner – and there’s nothing you can do about it.
And the Military Operations Areas on the Olympic Peninsula – have you heard the good news yet?? I have, and I can’t wait until you hear. You better enjoy the holidays, because you’re not gonna be happy!
You guys have got to be kidding – I read this entire paper. It’s about MICROWAVE technologies. That has nothing at all to do with the Growler. The jammers on the Growler operate in the Radio Wave part of the EM spectrum, the exact frequency range of every radar dish. That is not the same as the microwave part of the EM spectrum. The Growlers don’t jam things by heating them like a microwave. That’s simply not how jamming works. You’ve got the wrong topic completely and clearly no knowledge of physics. Jammers are quite simple really if you understand basic radar theory – which you don’t. Let me guess – someone told you this is how it works, right? Nice try, but they’re wrong.
Aaah, time to tell the aviation geeks in your life not just to attend OLF but shop in Coupeville. Many Coupeville businesses are PRO-NAVY and some of whom set up shop because Coupeville is seemingly more pro-small business than Oak Harbor. Heck, I wish I could live there in a studio apartment (get well Island Transit so I can).
.
(Note the source, folks. Boycott’s over.)
“Folks, our job is to kill people and break their toys,” You people really don’t get it. That’s exactly true, and the Navy’s warriors do exactly that, quite well in fact. Growler pilots are the elite of the elite warriors, just like SEALs. The job is to kill the enemy and break their stuff. If you thought something different, then you are nuts. Sorry if it offends your delicate sensitivity, but we don’t care. The warrior class is the highest of all callings, and it’s good that the Admirals remember to call it like it is. We’re not in the business of making you smile with little flowers and sunshine sprinkles. This is the business of war and the profession of arms, for which you are not suited. Growler pilots are elite warriors who aggressively destroy their enemies. And we’re proud of them for it!
Hope you guys enjoyed the SuperBowl flyover by one of our very own beloved Growler pilots. And no, zero permission from civilians required. We’re bringing back the Whidbey Island Airshow this year, which is going to be great. All kinds of fighter jets to look at. One of the Electronic Attack Squadrons is going to have a full “Demo” team. Isn’t that great news?
Best news I’ve heard in a long time Amy. Praise to an almighty and magnificent G*d who has blessed America with NAS Whidbey Island, Captain Mike Nortier and the many hard-working souls who keep our nation safe, free and strong.
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Looking at the comments.Competently disseminate standardized markets via sustainable infrastructures. Rapidiously leverage other’s ethical channels through pandemic processes.
Assertively aggregate timely internal or “organic” sources through cooperative catalysts for change in processes and paradigms.
Second level threaded comment.Distinctively mesh world-class niches vis-a-vis superior infrastructures. Monotonectally strategize team building synergy via corporate “outside the box” thinking. Credibly incentivize e-business growth strategies.
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Keep it coming. Really deep conversation. Enthusiastically empower real-time expertise after functional methods of empowerment.
Second one at first level. Completely disseminate global web services and user-centric scenarios. Phosfluorescently visualize open-source paradigms rather than e-business sources. Authoritatively build top-line e-tailers vis-a-vis enterprise-wide content.
Professionally scale B2B niche markets with equity invested best practices. Uniquely benchmark economically sound paradigms and an expanded array of partnerships.
Nice T-shirt, I got one in black. Goes with anything!
The most influential album of the last 25 years? This just might be it.
Perfect when you’re sat at your computer, waiting for the next batch of Woo Goodies to be released. The Patient Ninja is Patient.
Really happy with this print. The colors are great, and the paper quality is good too.
The most comfortable hoodie I have ever owned!
Wonderful quality, and an awesome design. WooThemes ftw!
The ninja silhouette is one of my favorite designs. This is a great product.
I bought this thinking it was a nice green colour, apparently it GREY! I’m colour blind so I don’t care but my girlfriend says grey makes me look fat
Very comfortable shirt, and I love the graphic!
Wonderful collection of WooThemes classics! A must buy for all Woo fans.
You only get the picture, not the person holding it, something they don’t mention in the description, now I’ve got to find my own person
Simple and effective design. One of my favorites.
This t-shirt is awesome! Would recommend to everyone!
I’m ordering mine next week
This hoodie is great for those chilly winter days. I love the WooNinja!
This album proves why The Woo are the best band ever. Best music ever!
This is my favorite hoodie!
If only it came in red as well!
I like the logo but not the color.
Perfect Hoodie for a Ninja!
This is my favorite poster. In fact, I’ve ordered 5 of them!
I have lots of hoodies, but none is as cool as this one!
Some rad tunes on this album!
This album gets a bit boring after you’ve listened to it more than once. Worth that first listen though.
I thought I was buying a man holding a poster, but when it arrived it was just the poster. Cool poster though, so I’ll give it 3 stars!
I love hoodies, and ninjas, so what could be better than a ninja hoodie? Not much, if you ask me!
This is a fantastic quality print and is happily hanging framed on my wall now.
This will go great with my Hoodie that I ordered a few weeks ago.
Great T-shirt quality, Great Design and Great Service.
Another great quality product that anyone who see’s me wearing has asked where to purchase one of their own.
This hoodie gets me lots of looks while out in public, I got the blue one and it’s awesome. Not sure if people are looking at my hoodie only, or also at my rocking bod.
This is the most bombastic hoodie in this shop, it’s soft and has the sly WooThemes ninja on it. Why wouldn’t you buy this?
Love this shirt! The ninja near and dear to my heart. <3
I love grey hoodies! This is perfect with my grey Ninja shirt, when I get cold I throw this on and I can still be a Ninja.
Can’t wait to start mixin’ with this one! Irba-irr-Up-up-up-up-date your theme!
Perfect for the lady Ninja in your life!
Ship it!
This only gets 1 star because I don’t have this yet. I want it now!
Three letters, one word: WOO!
I didn’t expect this poster to arrive folded. Now there are lines on the poster and one sad Ninja.
He really is the cutest little man. Swoooon!
The best hoodie ever!
Your comments about hearing damage and Rick Larson’s unsupportive position are spot on. I too have sustained hearing damage.
Recently an old WSU student friend sent me this e-mail prior to the June 19th Coupeville meeting: “Ken, keep me updated re the meeting tomorrow to solve that health damaging naval air jet noise. Horrible to live under a bureaucracy which claims to defend our liberties while it massively takes it away both monetarily and health wise.” Cheers. S. (Sig Sutterlin, Ph.D., Senior Fulbright Scholar in Comparative Economics, Ottumwa, IA.)
Thank you for your comment.
I’m very curious to know the details. Would it be possible to post a transcript of the actual announcement of suspension? This action of course raises a whole new set of questions, i.e.: if it has been this easy to suspend operations all along, why now and not sooner? If flight training is as critical as claimed, what will the young pilots do during this suspension? If it turns out not to have been as critical as claimed all these years, it seems the Navy’s case falls rather short. It is a bit concerning to me that if the waving of an officer’s pen can suspend operations, it can presumably just as arbitrarily resume those operations. I can see two reasons for this action: 1. its hard to measure and/or document what is not happening and 2. a (vain) hope that people will forget just how bad it is when its happening, and the pressure for change will dissipate. And lastly, I would like to see a new sign near OLF which says “the REAL sound of freedom.” Indeed, lets all enjoy it as long as it lasts, and work to make it permanent.
We had to wait a day to have links set up on the Whidbey News-Times online page. The online site is always a day behind. You can find it here: http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/216225591.html
Maryon, we who would sleep before 1 a.m. in Port Townsend, salute you! How nice and quiet the past few nights. Glad to see Ken Pickard on board–and that the work we did as WISE members (Whidbey Islanders for a Sound Environment) years back, is now successfully carried forward. This time, as you say, momentum must be carried forward, difficult though it may be, until OLF is shut down and restored to native prairie.
I would like to point out that despite the pending litigation with the US Navy over flight operations at OLF, it was not the suit that brought about a temporary stoppage. As outlined in the proposed budget cutbacks due to the sequester, the Navy is to suspend all off-base flight training to conserve on fuel usage. This was signed into effect well before the lawsuit was filed.
The PBY was purchased and transported by the members of the PBYMF with no federal tax dollars. The building used is on the historical register and since it was unoccupied prior to the PBYgroup moving in, the occupancy kept the building from being razed. The PBY group pays the utilities. The museum is not off limits to civilians. One needs only to go through the Torpedo Road Gate, tell the guard where you are going and you may proceed.
Bill Schoonover
Thank you for your information. A few months ago I had some free time and decided to check out the PBY museum that had been advertised in the newspaper. I was stopped at the gate by the sentry. He asked for my military ID, which I don’t have at which time he tersely demanded my driver license, took it, instructed me to proceed a short distance, make a U-turn, and that he would return my driver license as I left. It was a terse exchange of words that didn’t inquire about my intended destination.
For us non-military citizens it has become a mystery about way the Seaplane base has been on and off limits for civilian travel. I just did what I was told to do, and left. It pretty much ended my interest in the museum. How would you feel?
I am not anti-military as some have characterized in their responses. We just think that there is a lot of unsaid things that need to be said in the face of all that is being said suggesting that we civilians are a bunch of freeloaders at the expense of the Navy’s presence.
Yes, a lot of our information comes from scuttlebutt and reading our newspapers, but that’s what most of us have available and form or opinions on. Did you check out the link to the video on the military housing scandal? Do that. We know a lady whose son worked on that project here in Oak Harbor but quit out of disgust because of the crummy management, lousy craftsmanship, and substandard materials. We heard from a household mover employee how moving people into some of the units required scavenging items from other units to make them livable for the new tenants.
I don’t think that anything I wrote is not true. My comments were not directed at individuals, it was at the management level. If nothing else, I hope my comments will stir up some conversation that would clear up and perhaps correct these grievances, which your response tends to do. Our county functions are hurting and deserve better than they are getting. Much of the same can be said for property tax payers.
Both of my parents are retired Navy. A lot of Navy workers don’t live on base (we never did), which mean a lot of Navy families pay property taxes. Yeah, we shop at the Comissary and the Navy Exchange but we also shop at Safeway and Walmart & all the stores off base too just as much, if not more. Stop acting like Navy families don’t contribute to taxes because we do.
In the three years I was stationed at NAS Whidbey I can tell you for certain that I lived off base in private, non-military housing. I can count the number of times I used the Commissary on my two hands as I preferred Safeway. I ate at all the local restaurants, not at the base galley. And I also participated in community events such as Relay For Life. Now I am sure that there are some things that you can gripe about that are legitimate. But these things are not among them. The everyday sailors don’t make policy. We contribute to the community. And I would go as far as to say that perhaps you would have more military participation in the communities if those military families actually felt welcome in them. In all honesty, I was truly disappointed to discover such a military unfriendly town as Oak Harbor. And that goes for all people in Oak Harbor; rich, poor, young, old. All of you make the sailors there feel unwelcome. So perhaps one day the Navy will grant your wish and close down NAS Whidbey Island. It would be interesting to see what the effects on the town of Oak Harbor would be. But as far as I’m concerned you can keep your unfriendly town.
The Ebey’s Reserve community is based in and around Coupeville, not Oak Harbor. It is unfortunate you feel strong negative emotions against the Oak Harbor community, which is, in fact, very military friendly. Some Coupeville community members have made their enmity toward the military known but I have found that Oak Harbor has been supportive, demonstrably so, of the military members, families and mission. Please do not consider Mr. Williams’ opinion as that of the Oak Harbor community. Coupeville and Oak Harbor are two separate towns on Whidbey Island (as Coupeville community members take great pains to make clear). I agree with you, however, regarding the tone of Mr. Williams’ letter; it appears he wishes to have the base closed and all military presence removed. As well, when someone with a vitriolic perspective views events and actions (“perpetrated” by military members and “the Navy Base”) he only sees ugly and negative. The military is composed of PEOPLE. And you were so right that these folks don’t create policy and that they contribute because they do! As a property owner in Oak Harbor, I definitely pay taxes and support our schools. AND I am a proud military member. PROUD to serve, Mr. Williams.
Dear ZMR78. I was just a humble interstate trucker. But I spent six years in the early 80’s as a household mover moving many military families all over this nation. For the next 18 years I hauled material including military vehicles, jet engines, and even classified stuff for our nation’s State Department. I’ve probably been on more military bases than the average career veteran including NASWI. I too served and didn’t make any more of a fortune doing it than your average GI. But I felt like I was contributing to our nation’s needs, made friends, earned a good reputation, and enjoyed doing it. Somehow that comes across as important as what makes you so proud.
There is something appropriate to your remarks that I failed to mention in my original letter or reply to Mr. schoonover. My wife and I are members of our local Power Squadron. The PS is a social and educational organization that promotes boating safety by presenting instructional classes in Rules on the Water, Seamanship, Marine Communications and Electronics, Engine maintenance, and nearly every subject important to safe boating including qualifications for state boating licenses. We are similar to the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary. Many of our members are Navy veterans. No one would call us unpatriotic, sinister, devious, or threatening. Our classes are held wherever we can find adequate and convenient facilities at the lowest cost such as after hours at schools and colleges, churches, public buildings, private homes and garages, and even old warehouses.
Last year some of our courses were being taught at the Seaplane base, that is until our non-veteran students were suddenly and unceremoniously denied access to the base and unable to complete their course. Instructors had to find other facilities and fortunately a local church came to the rescue. We were being treated like enemy.
So Mr./Mrs. ZRA, the shoe is on the other foot and our Navy whom our taxes support is as unfriendly as anyone you complain of.
I do not know, for sure why they were denied access… other than there were rumors of vandalism and shoplifting at the NEX. That is why they began checking IDs at the gates. Not because they were simply being unfriendly. But, I am also not defending this. I think you should have been allowed to at least finish your courses. But two wrongs don’t make a right either.
Thank you for your thoughts. Retired Navy people in the squadron looked into the matter and found that the decision came from higher than they had access to or ability to challenge. Our instructors did some hunting and found a church that would let them use their classrooms. This was a year or so ago now. We just decided to roll with the punches but it sure leaves a sour taste on your mouth when you realize that it is our own Navy who for years had the Seaplane Base entirely open to the public and now had either become insanely paranoid or just plain mean and nasty.
Previous commentors corrected some of Al’s misconceptions. I’ll correct some others. I work across the street from the base hospital and get most of my health care there, so I can assure you it hasn’t been closed. I’m a Navy retiree and I’ve been a civil service employee of the Navy for nearly 14 years. Just like all of my local retired Navy friends, I’m a homeowner who pays property taxes and does plenty of shopping off-base. Incidentally, the base skeet range Mr. Williams mentioned has been closed for 10 years or more. I love being an Oak Harbor resident, jet noise and all.
Well I am a Navy Veteran, and I pay property taxes.. I did live in housing for a while, but for the most part, I rented and then purchased property… I do vote in Island County elections, but only as I am a Washington State and Island County Resident…would you deny me my right to vote? Not all Military personnel stationed here can vote here, you have to be a resident and most do not change there residency to there duty station. Yes my children did attend school here, put there was a subsidy that was given to the County and city to accommodate the higher influx of children that being a Navy town brings. I shop out in town, quite frequently, I am not hopping from bar to bar as this stereotyping individual would have you believe… I know several people who are not and have not been in the military that work on base. I am person who spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local schools, in the help house, the boys and girls club and Relay For Life Etc!! Your insinuation that we are the leeches of the communicating is appalling. I give a lot of myself to this community, because I live here, I work here, and I support my community!!!
Navy Veteran
Homeowner
School Volunteer
Relay For Life Team Captain
Help House supporter
Boys and Girls Club Supporter
Disaster Relief Organizer
Drug Education For Youth Mentor
As a brief reminder, it should be said that opinion letters posted on this blog are the thoughts of the person who wrote the opinion. Letters such as this are included as food for thought, and do not necessarily represent the opinions or beliefs of the CoER and its many individual members, who do not as a group pre-select blog content. In fact, given the nature of spirited debate within this diverse group, it is likely that no such letter could possibly represent all of CoER. Therefore, it is perfectly fine to disagree with someone’s posted letter, but we would caution against interpreting it as CoER opinion unless it is indicated to be so by members of the board.
By the way Mr. Williams, you can live tax free as well in military housing now since it is open to everyone. Enjoy. I will remain in Coupeville where I enjoy living off base and love that jet noise! You can count yourself lucky that my husband is defending the freedom of people such as yourself who don’t appreciate it AT ALL!
This letter has been removed. It was off topic for the CoER.
Since my original letter was removed, let me reinsert the link to the story developed by former P.I. Reporter Eric Nalder who investigated the Military Housing Project scandal that you are talking so highly about. It is a 25 minute presentation well worth your thoughtful consideration. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12192008/watch3.html
Then too, here’s a link to a letter to the editor of the Whidbey News-Times from a military person living in that project.http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/opinion/letters/22237539.html
Check these out and think it over.
Why not build an OLF on one of the islands out in the Sound? That shouldn’t be difficult or much more expensive than the money they’ve spent on things like the concrete barrier for a walkway no one uses such as on Ault Field Road between Oak Harbor and Goldie Roads. A look at Google Earth shows an island north of Whidbey with an airstrip. Then only the Orca’s and octopi would be complaining.
It is a fact that all your readers will not agree on all topics. I consider Al Williams unpublished letter a gem containing valuable insight. It is to the benefit of Whidbey Island residents to be aware of malfeasance committed by our government. Sweeping it under the rug will not lead to solutions. Readers have the option to dispute any issues they find objectionable. While it is just my opinion I would like to see Mr. Williams letter posted for everyone to read.
The reason the letter has been removed is that it is off topic for the goals of the Citizens of the Ebey’s Reserve. It deals more with the Navy itself, the presence of the base in Oak Harbor, and so forth. CoER, as a group, is only dedicated toward the closure of the OLF. Its individual members will certainly disagree with each other on other topics concerning the Navy, and therefore it is best for us not to post a letter that might mislead the public as to the group’s purpose or the opinions of its members. We have no intent to discredit the letter, its writer, or its detractors, and thus we apologize to all concerned for any inconvenience.
Airport noise has historically been a contested issue when civilian population grows around them. On a national level, the trend has been that residential civilian interests eventually win and airports have had to mitigate the noise or move to more remote and rural locations. It happened in Denver many years ago, Los Angeles had the same problems and had to come up with mitigation strategies that I think included the purchase of land around the airport. Most military airports have been located in desert areas that are sparsely populated with people who benefit from their presence such as China Lake in California or Fallon, Nevada. That ameliorates the complaints. Even the base at Fallon is located miles from that small town. Due to the much greater noise that some smaller fighter type military planes emit, these planes are usually sequestered at these remote bases.
Certainly this problem is not one the military does not anticipate and know will require mitigating measures on their part. I would think that if you want support for you efforts at OLF, you would likely find the local real estate business community to be a strong ally.
The noise of a Growler taking off is enough to startle elderly drivers or anyone not expecting it, and cause accidents on nearby roads and Hwy 20.
Why not build an OLF on one of the many small islands out in the Sound or Salish Sea? But then I suppose that would end up with deaf or dead Orcas and two-headed salmon. How about over the hills out away from Yakima where it could melt the sand and kill rattlesnakes?
The Navy sure has spent a lot more money more frivolously than for something like this that will benefit the citizenry they claim to serve.
Aircraft models and their noise levels change from time to time and have to be reckoned with. Other airport have had to make adjustments for civilian and residential development even when the developments came later in time. Does it make sense to harm those you claim to protect?
Al;
As such I’m open to an EIS discussing the following alternatives:
a) No Action
b) Eminent Domain of 2 NM around OLF Coupeville
c) A third runway at NAS Whidbey Island
d) A new OLF either at the Yakima Firing Range or the Hanford Nuclear Reservation where the Growlers would have to land, refuel to get to the right fuel weight to practice carrier landings (they can’t do so with a full load), do their practices, then ‘come home to us’.
e) Turning Skagit Regional into OLF Joe Kunzler for my entertainment.
I think most people who know the issues would agree we need to get to the truth of the matter.
Thanks for the complimentary assumption, Mr. Joe Kunzler, but I have no authority to make any changes. Do you? If you have authority to negotiate for the Navy, it is probably best for you to contact the attorney for the CoER group, Barbara Lichman, Ph.D. 949 224-6292 or blichman@buchalter.com. Moreover, my wife and I don’t live all that close to the OLF to be affected like those who do. I only wrote from my experience having one of the growlers zoom overhead as I was entering one of the turns of Hwy. 20 where it goes around the field. It was my first up close experience with the Growler sound and it was jarring to say the least. I’m glad there wasn’t a car coming at me from the opposite direction at that moment when my attention was toward the sky to see what the Sam Hill was happening. I thought something had exploded over our heads. I’d expect a driver coming from the other direction would be as hazardously affected. So there, I’ve said the least. I’ll let others say the most.
I too condemn the vandalism.
Congrats to you guys.
I’m happy too… something about some Joe’s petition supporting an EIS too.
Let’s come together and find solutions, agreed?
I have the perfect win win solution. I think the Navy, USAF and US Army should establish a joint Detachment at the Outlying field in Coupeville. They can assign 10-20 Predator drones there. Build a couple of hangers and maintenance facilities, some billiting for personell. The added infrastructure will provide employment for construction and upkeep, the added personell will provide revenue and taxes to Coupeville. The Predators are very quiet compared to Growlers so the noise issue will than be negligable. Perfect solution for both the Navy and Coupeville!!
Excellent letter.
Our problem is forgetting that the military is not a democratic organization. It is autocratic, and all too frequently devolves into arbitrary capriciousness. They deal constantly with young inexperienced kids so much that they become like them. The whole concept of democracy gets put into the far recesses of their minds and gets replaced with adversarial competitiveness where rank becomes the only value they recognize. By the time one fights their way up the system to gain a commanding rank, they are quite apt to become rank themselves.
Astute observations. It’s pretty sad to find out that our Navy would deceive, break rules, and lie to us. I wonder what our school teachers who taught us to believe in our government would say.
I would like to know where you got statistics to prove that the Growlers are louder than the previous aircraft flying out of NASWI and the statistics/studies that prove that operations have increased by 300%. You throw out these numbers with no qualifying source.
Barbara,
Please read the “JGL” Noise report on the “links” page. Everything you need is there, if your questions aren’t answered there, the answers will be in the complaint that was filed. If you still have questions, please contact us again, as answers to your questions are asked by many people, and we want your questions answered to your satisfaction.
Regards
COER
Thank you Maryon for putting forth your opinion and presenting your facts in such a clear way. Most people with homes under the flight path, people that are really suffering from the physically dangerous noise that is so much worse now, are very hesitant to speak out. Most of my neighbors are scared of the hostility that is aimed at anyone suggesting anything that might affect the economy of this area, even if the suggestion is that the Navy do a study and act on it based on their own rules. I hope both sides of this issue can move through the process of discovery and decision-making in an effective way.
Just returned to Florida after my annual visit to Coupeville. I can’t tell you how wonderful my stay was without the jets flying. Keep up the good work.
Joe,
Go up to Ault Field, plenty of jets there!
This has got to be humiliating for the local news media that it’s up to CER to breach a paywall of a defense publication to tell us the timeline of the Navy’s EA-18G EIS.
At least I’m humble enough to credit CER at every turn on this one. Thank you!
People at the top of the hill in Admiral’s Cove may as well live on the deck of an aircraft carrier, with exposure to a 134 dBA sound level. The level was professionally measured by a sound technician recently, but apparently never measured by the Navy. Their “measurement” was to simply declare that the Growlers would be quieter than the Prowlers.
Defense personnel are well protected by the Military. The Department of Defense issued standards for their own personnel. The report is at http://www.hf.faa.gov/docs/milstd1474doc.pdf. On page 66, it forbids personnel from being exposed to 115dBA without protection at any time, and provides them with excellent gear. They cannot be exposed to 145 dB at all, regardless of protection. Think of kids walking in the neighborhood, people riding bikes, babies napping, people unable to take cover On a carrier, there are work shifts and rotation of duties. They are probably not “on deck” as much as we are. Our lives are long. Their careers have limited duration.
People say that people who bought homes in the zone only have themselves to blame, although many were not warned at all. But who would have ever expected our military to expose us to real danger and misery this extreme? Buy a 115 dB air horn (the loudest on the market, requiring permission to purchase it) and see how often you want to turn it on.
The Growlers have now all been moved here, and they want to bring 135 more. How loud will the NEXT generation of Navy Jets be? They keep getting louder, and they already do physical damage. Who is going to draw the line? Many with financial incentives mask themselves with patriotism and harass those why want to try.
Lets get an accurate measure of the impact of these planes and take appropriate measures to ensure that pilots get safely trained and that citizens are protected.
Quickly incubate viral methods of empowerment rather than value-added solutions. Completely negotiate multifunctional outsourcing whereas corporate architectures. Compellingly supply.
HEAR, HEAR…
“Lets get an accurate measure of the impact of these planes and take appropriate measures to ensure that pilots get safely trained and that citizens are protected.”
If that means buying out the 100+ dB area, sure. Let’s do it.
All options on the table. All
Joe,
Why not all 65+ dB area like they did at seatac?
I was on the base today about 4:30. I was there for about 20 minutes and not one jet landed or took off during that time.
We need to talk to someone in air traffic control to get their opinion of the impact of carrier landing practice at Alt Field. I’ve been stationed on AF bases where the traffic was much higher than at Alt Field.
I don’t think anyone wants the Navy to leave Whidbey Island. But you make a good case about the OLF.
Beside China Lake, alternate operational OLF sites would include Fallon, Nevada and Lemoore, California. How about the military training grounds just over the hills toward Yakima? The argument that they are too far because an OLF must be close to the home base because of limited fuel requirements during “critical” landing operations sounds like a “red herring” because these bases have fueling and defueling facilities. As for so-called high cost for correcting landing and takeoff hazards, a few years ago the Navy chipped in $777,000 allegedly to mitigate flight hazards to just one property questionably affected by landing flight path issues. (http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/18223339.html) Then there are safety factors concerning hwy. 20 where it curves around OLF. The noise from an F18 is more distracting than a cell phone in a driver’s ear.
Then too, some folks remember when the Navy offered to sell the OLF to the county for $1 and had no takers. Anyone interested? How about that sonic boom that rattled the Oak Harbor area a few days ago that the Navy disallows responsibility for? Anyone believe it was caused by a high school kid’s hot rod with wings? Maybe it was a passing elephant with a bad case of flatulence. There seems to be a credibility issue as big as all outdoors.
“As revealed by our group through independent scientific testing, human beings perceive the Growler as much louder than the Prowler.”
Please define “perception.”
Please document all scientific claims with appropriate links to published studies.
Thanks
All information is on our links pages.
Please feel free to study them and understand where our information is from.
The meaning of the word “perception” is easily found by yourself in most good dictionaries.
If you have further questions, feel free to ask.
Regards
Thank you sir for being so rational. The only idea that I have trouble getting around is the continued use of the OLF as an airport. It is still and increasingly surrounded by homes and we do have a domestic airport location in Oak Harbor just across from the OLF. The addition of the OLF as another domestic airport would just add to the already over-whelming noise from Ault field and the existing domestic airport. Thank you for your support…it is heartening to know that there is still a sign of intelligence on Whidbey Island.
Loquaciously well said.
Thank you for this detailed information. I live under the planes in Oak Harbor. I bought my house in 1982, before a noise disclosure form was required, so I had never seen one before. For some time I have been reading and posting comments on the comments blogs in the Whidbey News-Times. I have been subjected to the kind of verbal abuse you describe. I have been called a liar, a hypocrite, a troll, a whiner, and stupid. I have been taunted and sneered at and told that my deafness, after living under the planes, is probably due to old age, but is certainly not due to jet noise because jet noise does not cause deafness. Yesterday Joe Kunzler told me to take my no-fly zone and shove it.
COER has been called a hate group and a terrorist-extremist group. Ken Pickard has been heaped with abuse since before the Janis Reid inverview with him came out, but the abuse of him and of COER has intensified since the interview was published. Since Paula’s letter and Keven’s editorial answer to Paula’s letter (plus additional COER bashing from Keven about the paid ad), it has got even worse. And now Growler Joe is crowing that COER is on the run with the help of the WN-T, and he is hatching ways to punish anti-OLF people with boycotts and threats of publishing names, addresses, and e-mail addresses, the implication being that this would invite harassment of us all from the crazies.
I hope some of you will write letters to the editor quoting the disclosure form says to show how inadequate it is as a warning. The 75+ equalling 134 db would be understandable to anyone who has ever been fooled by a deceptive guarantee. The COER ad is a clear and excellent statement of COER’s one and only goal, but I’m wondering how many people even read it, given Keven’s undermining of it in the editorial that ran in the same issue as the ad.
Ann Adams
More valuable information. Thank you.
Ann Adams
North Whidbey high schools alone(Oak Harbor and Coupeville)graduate about 400 students each year. How many of these students are likely to be able to find employment at the Navy Base? Not many, if any. What other employment opportunities are there for all these new faces in the unemployment line? For those who don’t go on to college, that’s probably a couple hundred or so who have no prospects of a future here. It’s no wonder we have such a sorry drug and delinquency problem. But that’s the typical fate of a bedroom community, especially one with so many who care about environmental issues not anxious to have the industrial revolution making war on this once pristine turf. We could be propagating ourselves out of a place at the dinner table.
Hey Joe. What gives you any right to insert yourself into this discussion? We don’t come to Sedro W and tell you folks how to run your affairs. Get back in your bus and leave us alone. Not your business.
I bought in the Bon Air/Ledgewood area in Spring 2012. I suppose I signed that disclosure but because it was so
vague, it did not sink into my brain how really bad the jet noise would be. Neighbors with whom I talked (before purchased)
said, oh yeah, the jets come over ever so often – but its nothing….Well, four or five nights a week, for hours on end, beginning
at 10PM and going on into the night until about 1 or 1:30 am. — is unbearable. What an injustice, but geez, we in the U.S.
should be used to that by now….lied to about everything, we are.
I came out of a very unexpected marital breakup, an auto accident, and a move from a rental that I had expected to live in
for at least two years; had been looking for a house to buy for nearly 9 months – and found this one that I could afford (but
that needed major work)….if I was depressed when I moved after all the emotional turmoil in my personal life, I have certainly
been depressed in the time I have lived – and listened to – this horrible, extremely loud jet noise. God help those whose life
and country that they fly over and bomb. When will we ever learn? When will we ever learn?
No one who has been under the jets near the runway for two hours would be surprised. People living there know they are in trouble. They don’t need a study.
Joe, this is a little different from what you said in the WN-T comments to Janis Reid’s story of Sept. 6, “Navy will conduct study on jet noise at Outlying Field.”
On Sept. 8 at 11:54 a.m. Truman Lowry wrote: “I bet all these people that have been asking for an EIS will wind up gripping [sic] that it is taking too long when it stretches out to 3 to 5 years to complete, which is average for an EIS.”
You replied on Sept. 8 at 1:40 p.m. “Truman, at the risk of being a fool and spewing strategy, my support of an EIS is in part to wear them down for 3 to 5 years so buying them out becomes the star option.”
If COER agrees to “tolerate the training,” maybe that will “wear them down”?
This is really good firsthand information, and I would like to see it in letters to the editor in the local papers. It would need to be condensed to 300 words, but the main points could fit into that word limit.
It’s being done to educate the general population on the life threatening harmful consequences of jet noise. This education must be done before the scoping process so the questions the public asks during scoping are informed ones.
The navy, of course, prefers a public without this knowledge.
Our aim is education.
It IS a shame that someone who has important information to give the community is afraid to sign his or her name to this information for fear of reprisal. What kind of reprisal? Boycotting a business, or something else? Has there been any violence against people who advocate closing OLF Coupeville except for the sparkler bomb thrown in Becky Spraitzar’s yard and the vandalism to her sign?
Ann,
Yes, many of have gotten phone calls in the middle of the night, other harassing measures. This is what is the shame. Either side doing this is just not right.I have no idea who is doing this, as BOTH sides claim their angel-hood, that they are blameless of everything. Can’t figure out who this can be then.
Why are we afraid to sign the letter? Why don’t we all sign it and send it to the congressman?
I’m ready to sign it.
Joe two miles doesn’t do it. I live about 5 miles away, but in the path they use coming and going. It’s several magnitudes louder than the EA6s.
BTW, you really have no horse in this race. It ‘s just as easy for you to go somewhere else to take your tail number pictures. We, on the other hand, live here. MYOB.
Joe,
You VISIT the jets. They are your play thing.
WE LIVE WITH THE JETS!
Big difference!
How do do dare to tell us what our life is like when they fly!
Joe, do you know what it is to live in a community with deep roots and history, not to mention a National Historic Reserve? Please be more thoughtful in your support of jets. There are many safe places to touch and go, no other place like ours.
Joe,
Are all your petition signers more important than even one child who goes deaf from the noise? Who is afraid to go to sleep because of nightmares from the jets. Would you want a crash into Admirals Cove on your shoulders? The death of a child is less important than your OLF? School children unable to learn due to jet noise aren’t more important? Where are your priorities?
How about the jets practice elsewhere until this is resolved?
Joe,
“How about we just cap OLF…..” We who?
If you had any say with the navy, negotiation might be reasonable. You do not tell the navy what to do. Neither do we. So, you, or us, negotiating is useless. In the court of law there is negotiating, not on a blog or the Whidbey papers. What deal can you deliver? Tell me what you can actually deliver, then we will negotiate.
Joe,
I said “what can you deliver?” “Lobbying to put polite pressure?” Kinda like, sir, if you please, if it wouldn’t trouble you, would you mind stopping killing my friends? I hate to be pushy, so if you really want to still drive our people deaf as well as crazy, that’s OK. But, if……..
Nope, the troops are having no problem training now. They can train carrier landing practice at Lemore or in the Idaho/Utah training ground. As someone else pointed out we live here and you only visit to take your pictures. Again, not your business.
Joe and just so you know the 4000 “patriots” who signed your petition were not the only Patriots on Whidbey. We take offense at your insinuation that those with opposing views are up patriotic. In my case, I am a retired USAF officer, so don’t assume you know how we feel or what our politics are.
Well, Joe,
I find it patriotic to support the health, safety and well being of our entire human race. That does include the military as well as civilians. I do not find it patriotic to support the military over the safety of our children and adults. I do not find it patriotic for the military to endanger civilians. The Coupeville OLF is not necessary for the safety of the military. The military has been able to fulfill their mission to full capability not using the Coupeville OLF.
Are you opposed to the safety of our children? Do you feel the military should re-start using the OLF even they know they are harming our friends?
Answer the question, Joe
I am all for relocating the small # of children to protect all of America’s children.
and if one leaves a comment critical of Growler practice at the OLF, does that insure that your phone will be tapped by the NSA and your next visitor might be a Navy drone?
Oh wait….we have Joe Kunzler’s 4000 strong thugs to vandalize property and make harrassing phone calls at 3 am….
Joe Kunzler states:
“I don’t see anything here meriting reprisal.”
However, that presumes that if Mr Kunzler did see something that merited reprisal he would send his army of 4000 patriot goons after the author?
Bee, good point, but Joe doesn’t have any army of anyone. He seems to have delusions that he is in charge of protecting the Navy, In reality he is just a Navy groupie who likes to take pictures of jets, and get his picture taken sitting in various aircraft. He has no authority or position. He just wants to keep coming to Whidbey to watch and take pictures of airctpraft. He doesn’t live here. He doesn’t get to live with the noise at 2AM, or have to drive 20 miles to escape and have a quiet dinner.
IMHO we should just ignore him and his constant “support our troops” drivel he keeps sending in to every paper on the island.
How about we just wait to see what the court says?
OK, that’s enough. This blog isn’t intended to recreate the Whidbey News Times. This post is closed to comments.
Rich Melass, Community Liaison, Whidbey Naval Air Station, supported and recommended the Board’s approval of the Comprehensive Plan changes in regard to the Noise Zone Map as well as staff recommended changes to ICC 14.01.B.
Answering questions from Commissioner McDowell, Mr. Melass said he was not aware of any other cities who had adopted as extensive a noise code as this, certainly nothing of the kind locally; this is considered at the leading edge and used as a model around the country. Pete Ross.
Is Commissioner McDowell the same person in charge of the Pro-OLF petition, Mac McDowell? Wasn’t he a developer? Hiding the disclosure then should make big problems for the Navy letting the jets fly again now. It looks like there has been no disclosure since 1992. He may have harmed OLF Coupeville more that he is currently helping it. The Navy looks bad when people aren’t notified. I wonder why he did it?
Money in the McDowell pocket. That’s why McDowell does everything.
About a month ago, KING5 News did a report on the relationship between aircraft noise and heart attacks. (I didn’t hear it all.) Are you aware of this report?
A political cartoon image has invaded my brain. The scene is a bird’s eye view from Admiral’s Cove to OLF. A Growler is swooping down from over the water to land. In front of the jet, there is a huge steam roller smashing houses as it climbs the hill toward the OLF. There are three figures driving the steam roller. One looks like Commissioner Mac McDowell, one like 2002 Navy Liaison Rich Melass,, and the last looking like the NMLS president. There is a stripped steam roller in the distance, labeled 1992 Noise Disclosure. The label on the steam roller lumbering up the hill is 2002 Noise Disclosure. The caption would read County Commissioners, Navy, and realtors clear the way for jets by stripping the 1992 Noise Disclosure.
I would change the caption to, “Clear the way for encroachment for a quick buck… by stripping the 1992 noise disclosure”
Agreed?
I wouldn’t give any awards for the 1992 Noise disclosure either. If the numbers COER spent $5k measuring are right, it is going to have to say 134+. 100 is over the top. 80 is illegal in every setting. Noise doubles with every 10 decibels. So that means the noise is now 4 times what it was. It shouldn’t take an EIS study. My 4-year-old could figure this out.
Bob;
I don’t think it really matters beyond 100 dB – it’s loud and nobody should be living in that area. Nobody.
I also note I get 80-85 dB on the Island Transit bus with my iPod touch apps which means I have to crank up the volume almost if not as high as it’ll go to hear for instance a recording of a book or an Island County Commission meeting.
Noise is just one of the problems swept under the County carpet. Others include pollution (aka, jet fuel dumping over residences)and safety, and waving a generic “noise flag” does not begin to inform folks about how tremendously their lives can be effected. But COER is doing that for the County, and the buyers are just starting to figure get the message, and they are smiling and saying “Thanks, but no thanks.” And those left holding the bag…well that story has yet to be told.
Who cares about jet noise! Why is there no disclosure about the crash zone the Navy has failed to draw, as they are required to do? It would run 15,000 feet on either side of the OLF, be 3000 wide, which would be almost all of Admiral’s cove. When the Navy gets around to doing it at OLF as they did in Oak Harbor in 2008, would the Navy buy out the residents? There own regulations that no one should live there might require it. The Navy paid $2 mil to just one property owner in 2008. If people did not sell, could residents get homeowner’s insurance? Would buyers be able to get a loan? HUD, for one, won’t lend. Oh, and Admiral’s Cove gets no reduction on taxes on the crash zone property here like they do in Oak Harbor. Probably because the Navy has not yet said that the crash zone is the crash zone.
Your “history” is definitely wrong in several places. Might want to check your work before posting it for the world to see.
This information came directly from the navy, so no wonder it’s wrong!
As with only too many things, the navy has their own version of the truth!
It was just ” copy and paste” I did tell you the source……. NASWI HOUSING.COM complain to the navy on their recorded message service. Blame me for once again thinking the navy is telling the truth. Dumb me….. Should have known better! Bah!
Kelly, this just like the navy saying the Growlers were quieter than the EA6B! Ya sure, you betcha! Would you mind getting me the facts( pretend you’re a COER member) and, unlike the navy, I’ll be happy to correct their bogus history.
Good news when DoD’s own pubs state that 75db is too much to be safe, and that the sound of freedom is no longer an acceptable answer.
Comments are now allowed.
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It is a stain on the community that you cannot give your name for fear of reprisal.
Your letter contains a lot of valuable information that the community needs, some of which it has heard, but unforunately not taken seriously because of the enormous resistance to doing anything that would annoy the Navy, for fear that criticism will cause the base to close. We are fightnig against enormous odds.
There is one thing in this post I must disagree with you about. If the Ault Field FPLCs are the planes that fly over my house in Oak Harbor, they are not an acceptable alternative to OLF. The only acceptable solution to me is that they fly NO planes low over civilians’ houses.
I am very glad that you are speaking out. I am very sorry that you have to do it anonymously.
-Responsible researchers don’t allude to undocumented “peer review studies.” Rather, the authors names are cited, the title of the paper, and the publishing journal are listed as well as the pages, etc.
If you can’t cite the “peer review science” you are referring to, don’t bother. Most of us are too well educated to fall for this.
In that this a blog rather than a scientific publication, COER finds the information presented sufficient without further explanation.
Most of us are too educated to care whether names of authors and titles of incidental papers are cited in testimony like this. The testimony is damning of the Navy’s practices without such citations.
Who made this film? Why is this piece not signd?
MyBaseGuide.com has stated for years NASWI burns 24 million gallons of fuel every year. Why hasn’t the amount of fuel gone up now that there are more planes? Is this just another lie?
We don’t know the total fuel consumption, it’s incredible, for sure. This was for one plane for one hour. You could do the math to find out the total amount of CO2 produced in a year…… But, it probably is too depressing.
I am very curious to understand how Growler sonar is affecting the environment.
Mr. Davis,
As far as I’m aware, the Growler doesn’t have sonar. The point of the article is yet another discovery of the harm caused by things we weren’t aware of just a couple of years ago. The killing of these harmless animals took place 10 years ago. The use of underwater explosions, the use of 235 decibel sonar, low frequency jet noise. these all are harming living things. That has been proven. We still use underwater sonar, harming animals. Did you know that the NorthWest Training Range Complex is proposing a “taking” of 650,000 animals over the next 10 years here in our home area? This is in the current EIS Draft Statement from the Navy. “taking” does NOT mean killing, killing is part of taking, as is moving, harming, injuring. This 650,000 figure includes 70 Orcas. Is that what should happen? A difficult question. The Growler is part of the overall problem. That is why we are going to get rid of them. We can’t get rid of the NWTRC, but, we can get rid of the Growler.
Many of us are part of military flying families and we remember the frightening risks we endured. Our hearts go out to this pilot’s loved ones. If, as I have, you have lost pilots to accidents in your family you know that they would do anything to avoid civilian casualties should the worst happen – but we all knew that it was often out of their control, and location was usually the ultimate factor. I am sure everyone involved in this tragedy is deeply grateful that no others were harmed.
OLF Coupeville happens to sit on native prairie soil. Check out the spectacular displays of blue camas, yellow buttercup and spring gold, white chickweed, among others, at Pacific Rim Institute right across the highway, starting about a month from now. Imagine coming around that curve and seeing the native prairie in its native glory. Sure beats thistles and jets.
As for those ugly blocks, I think they are just begging for some public art. Think of the burma-shave type messages which one might inscribe on those blocks. If you don’t want to “deface” their ugliness, think about the stiff tarps used by long-haul truckers. Wouldn’t it be nice to make artistic covers for those blocks out of such material? Coupeville has its plywood figures around halloween and christmas. The artistic possibilities for dressing up those blocks are limited only by peoples’ imaginations (and budgets, of course).
Remember that ridicule can be a more powerful weapon than outrage. Lets find ways to laugh at the Navy and its damaging foolishness.
The poor Islanders get nothing but noise, jet exhaust, and disrespect from the Whidbey Island locals when they protest. At least Oak Harbor gets a few minimum wage jobs!
This is just starting, folks! Write those elected officials, tell them how you are being treated by the navy.
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Have had tconcern the Navy would attempt to station the flawed F-35 at NAS Whidbey. NO ONE wants the F-35 there have been lawsuits to keep this aircraft out of communities. The noise of the F-35 is louder than the Growlers. Citizens of Tucson, AZ have requested a fly over for YEARS to demonstrate how disturbing this loud noise would be. The Air Force has evaded this request for a fly over with numerous lame excuses. Visit Tucson Forward for more information. The Internet is full of sites stating valid reasons the F-35 should be scrapped. CON-gress is engaging in Aid to Dependent Corporations squandering our tax dollars.
Is Robert Botts a double dipper working for Lockheed Martin?
While it is true that COER is not calling for closure of NAS Whidbey, I strongly believe this would be a good time to do a thorough economic analysis of the presence of the base. There is an ironclad assumption that Whidbey’s economy is completely dependent on the base. I hear commissioner Johnson citing the NAS payroll. What is missing from this accounting is the minus column. There are costs associated with the Navy’s presence. Making an entire region undesirable as a vacation destination or a place to live because of jet noise is one of those costs.
I dearly want to see an economist come forward who is both willing and able to do a serious economic analysis of the fiscal impact of the presence of NAS Whidbey. I think the results would surprise us all and would provide strong support for COER.
Joe apologizes – I’m AvgeekJoe on Flickr, hence the handle – caught a grammatical error. So decided to clean up my commentary.
———-
Thanks for using my photo. I’m blushing…
Because while you boo, I cheer.
That’s the UNITED STATES NAVY training to defend our rights. A ballgame can wait until after the OLF’s good work is done on the Navy’s training schedule. Country first and all of that.
You can say thank you to our Navy anytime now. The Navy didn’t put a neighborhood around their training field – realtors, politicians and blithering idiots (not much difference) did that. The question is what we do now that puts the LEAST burden on the American taxpayer.
Thank you. Enjoy the Growling.
OH, YOU DIDN’T USE MY PHOTOS OF AMERICA’S OLF ON THIS ONE? L-O-L.
HERE GOES, SET TO THE TUNE OF http://youtu.be/symsOO0EFSE…
I KNOW A PLACE WHERE PATRIOTS CAN GO…
A SWINGING PLACE WHERE ANGELS IN NOMEX WILL GREET YOU…
SOON YOU’LL BE ON THE ROCK N ROLL BLOCKS TAKING PICTURES…
AN ATMOSPHERE OF IT’S OWN…
I KNOW A PLACE WHERE THE MUSIC IS FINE AND THE LIGHTS ARE AFTERBURNING!
ALL AROUND, YOU GOTTA COME ALONG ON 25 APRIL AND BOO-GIE ON THE ROCK N ROLL BLOCKS!
I’M GOING TO LOVE THIS PLACE! OLF ME!
I knew you couldn’t stay away Sedro Woolley Joe,
Please, please, stop the flights at OLF. Only in the past few weeks, am I able to get even remotely a good night’s sleep.
I cannot afford to uproot my life again and move. My move here was the result of a divorce, $$$ implications, and being
pushed out of a rental. I had no idea I was moving into ‘hell’ – which is what it is when the Growlers/jets are flying.
Steve, I’m only staying out of the political process :-).
Now that the Navy has decided to keep OLF right where it’s at in the national interest since any alternative OLF site would require an EIS scoping meeting (I only learned this for sure in January) – a clear victory for me, the question is what does Island County do now? There’s little to no place for Skagitonians in that conversation.
Great! we don’t have enough noise in our neighborhood with the Growlers – now we’re having to look forward to a future of even
greater pollution!
Wonder if the Navy is willing to reimburse me for the depreciation of my home as a result….and pay for my medication so that I can sleep!
What a world…
I live in Victoria, BC (Canada) and I’m positive that it’s these aircraft that I can hear plain as day from my house. Sometimes it’s like thunder, other times it could easily be mistaken for an earthquake. I can only imagine how loud it must be for the Washington residents that live closer to the airstrip.
You ARE hearing the EA18Gs, please, contact your government representatives and complain. That is the only way this can be changed. You are being punished for OUR transgressions. Why we have to inflict our problem on another country is beyond me. The Growlers have to be moved elsewhere. Raise your voice!
I’m sure Senator Murray, who lives on Whidbey Island, would complain if not for the fact NAS Whidbey Island brings enough economic stimulus to pay for the public services. The national defense asset to be relocated would cost a 3-year second EIS, millions of dollars and possibly NAS Whidbey Island. If you doubt me, just ask a Navy spokesperson and they’ll give you the essay version.
I’m also sure OLF Coupeville is becoming a tourist attraction. Come to OLF Coupeville, see the Growlers dance, feel the raw po-wer in your ears & bones, share in a sense of patriotism and perhaps buy a discounted home from an exfiltrating COER member.
So I will call Senator Murray. Don’t expect me to be anything less than happy in calling to support
Economic stimulus? So that’s why K-Mart closed? The supposed economic stimulus from the base where the retired navy folks shop at the commissary rather than at K-Mart? The economic stimulus? So that’s why all those stores are closing on Pioneer Way? The economic stimulus? Oak Harbor is becoming a ghost town due to this economic stimulus we hear so much about.
Senator Murray is never here during the week.
Please, call the Good Senator, 202-224-2621, let her know just how large this problem is! If everyone calls, it just lets her know that this island is in serious trouble. Please, call! The more people call, the better it demonstrates the size of this problem….. Help COER out here, and call.
COER, you mention ONE store from a brand – namely K-Mart – that is on the decline nationally. Oak Harbor a ghost town? Really?
Every businessperson in Oak Harbor supports NAS Whidbey Island. There was even a resolution passed by the City Council in support of NAS Whidbey Island and massive support in the Chamber of Commerce.
BTW, what businesses have had to close in Coupeville due to the noise? List please.
I should also add it would be best if Whidbey found a collaborative solution here. The OLF is here to stay for some time, the problem is WHIDBEY ISLAND needs to discuss a wide range of mitigation strategies WITHOUT outside (i.e. ME) interfering. One option might be eminent domain for a new tent city jail for multiple counties. Another might be a voucher cashed upon moving and selling to a Navy family. Sadly, this is not SimCity and I realize that.
Have a great GROWLING evening.
Dear Mr. Geekjoe,
Please read the article on the closing of so many businesses in Oak Harbor in the Whidbey News Times of May 3rd. That puts your argument to rest. The businesses of Oak Harbor are going, due to the continued loss of revenue to the commissary where the current base members shop, as well as the retired military. If the military contributed so much to the area, why are all these businesses closing? The economy is better, the recession is over, no more excuses. Rather than just expressing emotion, please, in the future, use facts. The use of words like “every” and “massive”, prove nothing.
A tent city jail? Sir, THIS IS NOT ARIZONA!!!! This is a state where humans come before money, or used to!
I live northeast of Oak Harbor and struggle every day as the Growlers fly over my home and that of my children and grandchildren. We are now into our fourth day of flights beginning early in the morning and into the night. I empathize with your plight at OLF and have written letters supporting the end of the Growlers reign of terror and defending members of COER. I just want you to know that their are many of us here by the base that have to tolerate the Growlers for the majority of the week and last summer was horrendous when they stopped flying OLF and all flights took place up here. I still have a grandchild that has not slept in her bed for almost a year now because the Growlers fly maybe two hundred feet above their home. I really believe you are lucky that the flights are now limited at OLF and hope that people living there realize you are making a difference where you live. I only wish there was momentum on the north end and attention given to the issue here. I am sorry you will be exposed to the Growlers for the dates listed but personally I am relieved that for a few nights we will have peace.
That was NOT the reason FCLPs at Coupeville was cancelled. I was there. Please have the decency to frame your arguments with at least a smattering of the truth. But I guess that doesn’t really matter to you
Mr Danielson,
We really don’t understand your comment. This was the article in the Whidbey News Times. We did not alter or edit the article. If you have other information as to why the FCLPs were cancelled, would you please inform us! As far as we know, they were cancelled because of yet another fatal jet crash, and the navy wanted to have everyone review their safety procedures. Truth matters very much to us as that is the only thing we use against the navy in stopping the Growlers from flying. Our lawsuit used, for the most part, information that came from the navy. We supplied the sound study, the navy supplied the facts we used.
Again, if you have different information than the Whidbey News Times, we would definitely like to have it.
Regards,
COER
The noise from these Growlers is intolerable. These touch and go exercises on Whidbey Island must stop.
The Navy (NAS Oak Harbor) thinks that it is supporting it’s citizens by the potential danger of low flying aircraft (crash landings) and the damaging and viceral effects of extreemly loud jet noise. Some in neighboring communities such as Oak Harbor believe that they “love jet noise” however, if personally presented with this option they would very soon tire of it’s harmful effects. Essentially the lovers of ‘jet noise’ are enamored by their thinly vieled perception of jet noise which underlies their crass commercial inerest. It is easy to see why they support jet noise which is for their benefit which is in the interest of realtors and some sellers, to gain legitimacy among locals and to serve their pecunary inerests. No one outside of the area is going to by a home based on a realtor loving jet noise or for that matter a local resident.
Love the new improved sign showing true concern for quality of life, preserving property rights, freedom from health threats, protection of marine, wildlife and the ecosystem.
Where can I get one of the new signs?
((((((HUGS))))))
The OLF field that you are trying to shutdown is for the purpose of training those same pilots to perform carrier landings both day and night. Perhaps the pilot who crashed was denied the opportunity to acquire necessary training in carrier landings due to the actions of groups like your own. There will be more of these tragedies if you do not desist and allow these pilots to do their much needed training so they may operate in a safe manner. There is nothing worse in this world than a bunch of whining NIMBYs.
The navy will never let the pilots fly without proper training, please understand that our mission is only to have them train somewhere else, not deny them training. COER values the lives of our people in the military. The military has shown they can train elsewhere as they didn’t use the OLF for 11 months. No pilot is allowed to let their carrier training go that long. They can, and have been training at other places than the Coupeville OLF. They trained at Ault field, El Centro, San Diego, as well as China Lake. So how is it that they weren’t trained? Coupeville is no place for ” student drivers” the desert is.
All planes should be grounded until the cause of these crashes is determined to protect the ecosystem and citizens from undue harm. Fortunately there was no loss of life. However the ocean will now be contaminated with toxic jet fuel and any other toxins on the plane. Families have lost their homes in devastating fires. Military training should not be conducted in areas where there is a possibility of loss of life and property damage. How is the military the worlds worst polluter using the most fossil fuel going to compensate victims for loss of cherished family mementos, photos, heirlooms … HOW?
first to call these men and women “kids”is an insult. how would like to be called a kid when you are an adult? they will piece the harrier to find out what happened for that one to crash. for the f-18 at sea, if they can recover it they will and determine what cause that one to crash as well. the harrier was making it’s approach to land, it was not doing active training at the time. to ground the entire air wing is a bit of an over kill. do we ground the entire airline industry when a jet crashes? chances are the pilots was telling the control exactly what happened prior to them ejecting.
Lapointe sounds good. I wonder how he stands on the other issues; for instance, raising the minimum wage, on which Rick is sound.
The problem with supporting Lapointe now is that unless he has a chance of winning, we could put another Republican in the Congress. That’s always the problem of voting for a third party candidate when the nominee of our party is not acceptable.
31,000 machinists think rick is a boeing tool.
and lots of folks think rick is a war criminal, because he knew
all about the murder, torture, and renditions, due to his position
on the armed services committee; yes, he knew all about bush and cheney
and their whole scheme. but he did and said nothing, because his boss Pelosi
said so; ole nancy is of the same cloth- a complicit war criminal. but rick
wouldn’t have said anything, because was a bushlicker !
rick no longer owns a house here in WA..no, he rents here and owns a house near
the stinking cesspool that is our nation’s Capitol which puts him in the right
place to become a boeing lobbyist. and, i’ll bet that dweeb already puts a lot of boeing bucks
in his wallet on a regular basis. Yep, ANYTHING, ANYONE… is better than rick !
big Beach Marketing craig walden
Still time for Environmental Impact Statements! : Citizens of the Ebey’s Reserve
Very well said Ms. Spina… I am so aghast at the continuous denials of the facts.
The jet noise isn’t “the sound of freedom.” It’s the sound of our being prisoners of an oppressive and violent military-industrial state. The jets should be grounded. And turned into plowshares.
I agree with Ms. Brabanski. Superb letter, Ms. Spina. Unfortunately trying to argue facts with the WNT trolls like Gray, Siebert, etc. is like trying to argue evolution with a creationist. It is appalling that the Whidbey News Times does not report facts, yet allows trolls to dominate its opinion area.
Love how he is so concerned just about North Whidbey and not the rest of the island. Larson needs to be gone, LaPointe has my vote for sure. Larson is playing to the right wingers only, thinking they are the majority on this island. I think he will have a rude awakening come election time.
Gotta agree, its time to vote for someone with his head on straight who actually speaks for all of us. Mike has thus far said a whole lot of things I wish I’d said. Please check out my election crib sheet, at http://politiblongwind.blogspot.com/ for research and comments on all the candidates in the August 5 primary. And please REMEMBER TO VOTE AND RETURN YOUR BALLOTS.
Primary over. Larsen does’t need our votes anymore so not restraining growler practice anymore.
Just in time for our out of state family’s visit to beautiful Whidbey Island…hope this doesn’t keep the 4 year old awake and traumatized
How did your out of state family do last night? The Growlers were late and loud, I hope the young one got some sleep. Please remember to call Senator Murray. More today, tomorrowThursday, as well as Friday, this is not right.
just completed call number 15 to Senator Murray, also reminded her, that if she wants campaign funds from us, she needs to do her job and look into this.
Allow for a complete EIS to be addressed!
If the EIS will be expanded, shouldn’t the Navy also study the effects of selling Growlers made in St. Louis to foreign countries and, as part of the package, including contracts to train their pilots here? What is the balance of gain weighed against the additional abuse of people living in the noise zones? Should any gain be acceptable that burdens this noise zone community further?
How will these constant escalations be viewed by this community, some of whom suffer from a number of health conditions exacerbated by this level of noise? They see that the Navy does not factor additional persecution into these important decisions. Many can’t afford to move. They see what that means for their future and it is terrifying. Would anyone dispute, from the viewpoint of many civilians who were trapped under this deadly noise, that this is torture?
Congressman Rick Larsen, Coupville Mayor Nancy Conard and Commissioner Helen Price Johnson need to review and consult with their constituents in total. I personally do not appreciate being represented as being opposed to NAS Whidbey Growlers. I resent being included in this ridiculous request. If the COER are the chosen few being represented, then we need to reconsider our votes.
These elected leaders are considering the complete problems created by the Growlers. The health issues as well as economic ones. Is it better to kill someone with noise just to save a job? If life is valued, then the health damages must be considered. It is 12:07 AM, the Growlers are still doing FCLPs, that is harmful to human and animal health.
Last night, 8/12/14, the noise levels in my neighborhood were well above the stated limit for our noise zone of 65 db – most were 85 to 90 db. My neighbor was so upset that the Paramedics were called. They flew after midnight.
Remember to call senator murray at 202-224-2621
Seems that there may be very good reasons for ‘ramping up’ the ‘assault’ on Whidbey. Look around: the political arena is full of threats right now. Unrest and very bad relations with Russia all compounded to produce a very good reason for our military to stay focused and WELL TRAINED. Sorry, I have read your data and blogs. I have paid attention and tried to be understanding of your concerns. But the facts remain: you seem to be in the minority side on an issue that impacts the economic health of our lives. We want the military presence to STAY HERE. Period.
When economics takes precedence over the physical and mental health of the residents of central Whidbey will be sad times. If you tell us that a job is more important than the health of citizens, I fear for our country. Many of us are tired of being collateral damage. Is the job of one person more important than the very health and well being of another? We do NOT dispute the fact of the necessary training of our crews, just where they train!
We want the Growlers to move! You would rather we are hurt and maimed? The minority? Is the harming or death of even ONE person not more important than any job?
You apparently feel it’s OK to hurt people just to protect your job?
Ms. Moore,
If our quality of life is destroyed, what exactly is our military training to preserve and protect?
My quality of life is directly measured by how much Skyraiding and OLFing I get in my life. Also how much motion blur.
EMINENT DOMAIN COER WHIDBEY NOW! We’ll give you THE OPTION of a new, planned community in South Whidbey with a TISSUE PAPER PLANT for employment purposes.
Keep flopping like another bunch of millionaires who dribble a basketball or chase a soccer ball and some jealous aviation geek will start a petition for EMINENT DOMAIN COER WHIDBEY!!
We’ll also demand BLEACHERS & OLF FAN APPRECIATION DAYS!!
G*d Bless
At least “Joe” is honest about why he expects people to suffer silently. Add “photo opportunities” to the reasons people want an endless stream of Growlers. He shows a very nasty side because his hobby might be threatened with no feelings for real people living their lives with the Growlers every day. Embarrassing how he threatens to do something to move people out of their homes to get what he wants – a hobby. I’ve never commented like this, but I had to say it.
Janet;
I do not want you to “suffer silently”. I don’t see watching EA-18Gs as something to “suffer” but I am sick and tired of the 1-sided view that quality of life is being harmed by EA-18Gs. Some see bouncing EA-18Gs are joyful.
Now, I support IF we have provable data you were harmed for you to BE COMPENSATED and have a fair go at leaving. For those who did not get noise disclosures, I am willing to pay higher taxes to get those folks a mulligan. It would take a lot less longer than $3 million, a 2nd 3+ year EIS and litigation from whomever would get a new OLF of untold hundreds of millions in their neighborhood. Plus EMINENT DOMAIN & buy aviation easements most likely of some folks at the new OLF site. See my logic – measure twice, eminent domain or buy easments once and fair go?
I also wanted to tease some of the whiners I read here. Flop at your own risk…
Have you considered posting the actual scheduled times vice “LATE INTO THE NIGHT!” As Coupeville has to seize operations at midnight, I just figure you might want to be accurate.
We just pass on the information exactly as we get from the navy from their press release. We wish they were more accurate.
We do wish the navy would quit at midnight. They don’t take our suggestions when we tell them they are harming us, either!
How exactly is your health a concern here? Are Growlers infecting these people with ebola? This website is just rhetoric in a pathetic attempt to get other people emotionally involved in your own problems. Sorry, but your hearing isn’t really at risk, and yeah, it isn’t that much of a concern to me. I also love the link to frightened horses…oh yeah, the Navy is cruel lot, hell-bent on mercilessly scaring horses. In nature, animals are NEVER frightened of anything…nor do they ever adapt to their surroundings and environments. I look forward to your response telling me I know nothing about anything. I heart Jet Noise.
no response is necessary, your own words speak for themselves.
Mark and Joe,
Guys, you both need to drink less Kool-Aid. It is altering your judgement and perception of reality.
John;
I understand today COER was asked today to decide between uh:
a) Property values
AND
b) Health emergency as Someone’s website now bloviates like one of those Tea Party sites
“Admiral Rich … stated that it would be exceptionally challenging to acquire a new OLF both financially and environmentally additionally; it would take a very long time, likely over 10 years (mid 2020s).”
So which is it – health emergency requiring evacuation or a nuisance worth waiting “over 10 years”? Because those jets you hate so much are going to have to train while they and you wait for that new OLF… something that is “exceptionally challenging”.
So COER, as you whine about criticism understand this: You can either fight the system and lose or you can realize this isn’t the neighborhood for you, never will be, never should have been BECAUSE YOU WERE DECEIVED and not told about the OLF nor the aviation easements nor the fragile dependency of the economy on the Naval Air Station. The solution to the deception is NOT spending untold hundreds of millions so your property value can bounce like a Growler.
That plane in the photo is right where it would be over Admiral’s Cove, at about that altitude and distance, before it drops over the hill to land. Everyone who hasn’t experienced that location should take a little field trip and sit there for an hour during training so they know what they are talking about when they criticize people who want them gone. The Lilly study measured 119 dba and 134 db somewhere near there, way over the 100 decibels in the new disclosure, and definitely requiring not even a second in time for permanent ear damage. Never mind heart, kidney, etc etc problems. Its drop dead deafening. No study has measured what it does because noise that loud isn’t allowed anywhere else because it is ILLEGAL. Only the Navy gets to break the law unless Congress tells them no more. I’m going to paste that photo into an email to the Armed Services Committee and tell them to read their Open Letter again and really think about what we go through. No more. No more. thanks for providing the email addresses. Click, email opens, and paste. Simple.
Del, we can solve this really fast you know?
New OLF would take over 10 years.
Eminent Domain would take a lot less.
So sick of the claiming of “health emergency” over oh a few seconds per bounce of loudness then almost quiet for a few minutes then loudness then quiet. You should get compensated, that’s for sure.
If my friends and I want to risk our hearing, put the earplugs in or earphones on and have a good time – that’s our choice and we have NO claim to make because we know what we’re doing. But those who didn’t know and bought property instead of having a choice to buy somewhere quiet, different story.
I hope you can get out from under the jets soon. I’ll make sure to demand eminent domain. The greedy realtor$ will hate my COJONES for it too.
God you freeking clowns are beyond stupid see what happens if you piss of congress with this stupid shit and they pull the navy out you could kiss this area goodbye. Christ look back to the 90’s when you fought to keep the base open really you tards are as bad as the dumb ass sitting in the presidents office saying that he was not responsible for the troops being pulled out of Iraq
Retribution is exactly what happened to R&A H from pilots seeking revenge for complaints in multimillion dollar Growlers. We have had retribution all day Aug. 26, indeed for the past year in Oak Harbor! Growler pilots have no boundaries, they do not fly in established flight paths. They fly low at tree level in the super highway OVER our home. Fumes from Growler exhaust makes us hostages in our own homes. Mr. J. D. Golden, aid to Larsen, 202-225-2605 told me air quality tests are in progress. Is this the result of our complaints? I did not have a chance to determine who is conducting these air quality tests if it is the Navy or an independent agency. The fumes are so heavy I am afraid the atmosphere will explode. We will not accept dumping these crumbs in our beautiful area. The Navy lacked vision to secure adequate space decades ago, indeed NASWI was on the BRAC list in 1991 and 2005. Why should we suffer this invasion and occupation because of Navy lack of vision? Why are tax dollars used to harass us we do NOT want to live in a war zone?
Here we go again10 PM Growler engines revving up how late will Growlers fly when can we sleep?
Sir, with all due respect:
(1) Growler pilots have no idea where you live.
(2) The Growler does not have GPS where you can enter a street address. To quote another, “It’s not a TomTom.”
(3) Growler pilots have no knowledge of when you make noise complaints. The 23-35 year old aircrew flying jets are training for combat deployment, not to annoy you. They give absolutely ZERO consideration to how many times you call.
(4) They fly their patterns so that they can deploy to combat safely and return home safely. No matter how many times you make a noise complaint, no pilot will ever hear about it.
(5) Your fight is with politicians. Don’t make it about the aircrew. They are doing their job and will continue to do their job regardless of your feelings. They don’t answer to you. They answer to senior military commanders who in turn answer to elected civilian leadership.
I just arrived home from a week long stay at the hospital, the reason for the stay was severe complex migraines. Never had an issue with headaches until I moved to Coupville, wondering if there is a direct correlation between the two. If anyone knows of any studies that can link the two together that would help my Neurologist out I would appreciate it.
I believe that this will inhibit my healing from total knee replacement due to the traumatic stress and due to lack of sleep from the horrific noise and fear that the Growlers represent.
But no EA-18G……………..
Quit spreading FEAR because if you were truly afraid, you’d seek compensation to leave.
A new OLF would take 10+ years. Compensation for deception? Not as long.
Basic math from a true leader.
I have not seen the navy plan to buy all those affected out. Apparently you are in the loop. Would you please explain where we apply?
Just to clarify, the Navy should close NAS Whidbey Island, remove the EA-18G, and stop flying all together because your knee hurts?
There has never been, and never will be a call from COER to close NASWI. My knee is fine, thanks, but my hearing is about gone. Yes, the navy should remove the EA18G. As a hornet driver, do you get compensation for your hearing loss? I don’t! Is that right?
The Growler has caused me zero hearing loss. I have no medical claims. But in the event that something did happen to me in a jet, I knew the risks long before now. I accept those risks in order to have an exciting job and life. That’s the tradeoff. That’s why aviators train – to minimize risks.
For Field Carrier Landing Practice, the jets must practice at sea level. So unfortunately, all those locations are near the coast where people like to live. Fallon sits at 4800 feet. China Lake sits at 2800 feet. So as long as jets need to land on aircraft carriers (long time), the jets will need to inconvenience people somewhere near the coast to train.
COER’s suggestions are not valid because none of the locations suggested (Yakima, Moses Lake, China Lake) are anywhere near sea level, nor do they replicate the carrier environment. So the only other choice is – move the jets from your backyard into someone else’s backyard on the coast.
I can promise you (aside from all other mitigation strategies) D.C. is only going to move more jets to Whidbey, not less. Why? Quite truthfully, because Congressmen and Senators don’t get elected by 50 Whidbey residents who don’t like jet noise. They get elected by Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrup Grumman. I’m not asking you to believe me, nor am I attempting to be snotty. You can look up who the top campaign contributors are to almost every member of the Senate and House Armed Services Committees. And it’s pretty obvious how those votes will go. Your strategy is incorrect. Demanding the Navy change its training program will do absolutely nothing. Neither will calling in noise complaints. Your only strategy is to change how people get elected. All your other techniques are a waste of time and money.
Last week we waited until after the jets were done flying before we took our dogs out for a walk at Rhododendron Park. While we were walking, the jets resumed flying. We were at least 15 minutes away from the car. The sound was deafening as we were right under the jets. While we were walking, an older women came from the opposite direction walking her three dogs. The woman was obviously distressed and disoriented as were her dogs. She stopped us and screamed that she was lost and could not find her car. Each time a jet flew over she would cover her ears and hunker down almost to a fetal positions. We questioned her and figured out where she must have parked and helped her find her car. My husband had to try to keep her older big golden moving as he wanted to crawl under bushes and hide from the noise. I was trying to keep our two dogs calm. And her little dogs were running in circles trying to escape the noise. I do not know what would have happened to her if we had not crossed paths.
Talk to your lawyers about “inverse condemnation”… and “aviation easements”
Dear Joe,
We get it, you like to take pictures of airplanes and then you go back to nice quiet Sedro Wooly for a good nights sleep. How bout if the new OLF is built in SW? then when it affects your health and welfare I’ll tell you to just suck it up ’cause we know how you love jet noise. You are not a stake holder in this issue. Don’t presume to tell us how to act or to protect our homes, welfare, or our health. MYOB.
Ralph, OLF is very much MYOB bro. All of America pays for it. I am American, respect me and I will respect you. Okay?
I have asked OLF flight ops be moved to Skagit. Repeatedly in 1-on-1 conversations. Too expensive, too costly, too much time to do a 2nd EIS, buy aviation easements + spend years litigating eminent domain cases, and strengthen or build a new runway.
I am sorry this is the case – Skagitonians who use surplus Whidbey Island labor should share in the sacrifice and glory. Just as a certain county seat whose main employer – Island County Government – is dependent on NAS Whidbey Island revenue streams.
That said, I’m sure Ralph you speak for and from many opponents of OLF, the Navy and me. The annoyance has some empathy with me. That’s why I support compensation for folks like you.
We good?
If the Navy needs all these special conditions for their training they should have had the fore site to establish a proper facility with a sufficient buffer zone from civilian population. This is not the case at OLF Coupeville. If the Navy wants to stay here, they should buy out central Whidbey and raze Coupeville to create a military utopia. Otherwise the “50 Whidbey Island residents who don’t like jet noise” will continue to fight for their right to a peaceful and quiet home.
John, thank you for realizing why I support eminent domain.
A new OLF would require:
*A second EIS study of 3-5 years
*Lawsuit settlements, eminent domain and Aviation easements at the new site
*Risking the future of NAS Whidbey Island and therefore the national defense plus Skagit & Island Economies. Perhaps Washington State’s economic health… all for a few folks who strayed into a jet noise area.
It is U. S. Navy lack of consideration for the rights of property owners and history of Ebey’s Reserve, Deception Pass Park, Historic Coupeville and other historic areas on Whidbey Island. How stupid of the U. S. Navy to assume Growlers the loudest aircraft ever would be welcome on Whidbey Island. No one anywhere wants to be subjected to constant earsplitting noise at all hours of the day and night. Growler noise is a disruption of our peaceful life the reason most citizens want to live on Whidbey. The U.S. Navy has the nerve to propose stationing even more Growlers at NAS Whidbey. The DOD has many other locations with more space and sparse population. There is no consideration for the safety of Whidbey Island Citizens. It is not safe to have young pilots training in Growlers over our homes, why hasn’t the U.S. Navy taken action to protect citizens? It is only a matter of time before there is a horrendous ‘mishap’. How many people will be killed, how many homes destroyed? Why should communities on Whidbey Island have to live in fear?
Sorry to inform you, Sir, but I would take a look at your elected representatives, particularly those on the Senate and House Armed Services Committees. They are the ones who approved the jets, the funding lines, and the billions of dollars of support that allows for Growler operations to thrive at NAS Whidbey Island. The Navy has very little to do with it.
The jets aren’t going to move because it isn’t just the jets. It’s the people, the infrastructure, training, and maintenance facilities worth billions of dollars. It’s much easier to buy out a few civilians than to relocate an entire program (EA-18G). I worked at the Pentagon. I assure you that I have been on the inside of these conversations. It’s an easy decision for lawmakers.
If the jets leave, NAS Whidbey Island closes because there is no sustainability for a single platform base in today’s fiscal environment. Bases need to be joint and/or multi-platform, which is exactly why the P-8 is coming to Whidbey. So in short, the Growlers and P-8 Poseidons just guaranteed that NAS Whidbey will be around for the next 60 years. The vast majority of Island County benefits from the base. And although the extremely small minority is welcome to complain, no Growler pilot will ever hear your complaints. Voting for different representatives won’t change it either because they all know that closing a military base in your own region is political suicide.
——————————————————————————————————————
Mr. Stevens, sorry to use this space, there is something wrong with the “reply” section.
Dear John Stevens,
We have stated before, ONE of our goals is to close the OLF, The Growlers did not use the OLF for 11 months last year. They are also limited to 6120 ops a year until the EIS is completed. If the EIS is extended, so will the partial shutdown of the OLF. If the navy can make do with only 6120 ops at the OLF, they can make do with zero as they have before. Perhaps you are a recent transfer. They can, and do quite well without it. We have no intention or desire to close the base. And, as you said, it’s the electeds that make the decisions, not the navy, and of that, we are very glad. That’s why that’s where we are putting our efforts, not on the navy. If you might have noticed, Rick Larsen was NOT endorsed for re election by the Democratic party of San Juan County. They endorsed the Independent, Mike Lapoint! We are starting to be heard. Did you read the letter from Senator John McCain to Ray Mabus? Ray Mabus serves at the pleasure of civilians. The civilians ask the questions, the navy answers. That’s why we ask people to call Senator Murray and Senator Cantwell, NOT Ray Mabus. If the electeds want to Growlers to go, and to keep the Base open, that is what will happen. Just like you said. It’s NOT a navy decision, they have no say. If a Growler pilot never hears our complaints, that’s fine, as they should be listening to the sound of their jet. The pilots should be practicing, not politicking, leave that to the civilians, their bosses.
The people of central Whidbey, Port Townsend, the San Juan Islands, Camano Island, La Conner, are the ones being harmed physically and economically by the Growlers, these civilians vastly outnumber the residents of north Whidbey Island who are tied to the economic succor of the Growlers. Central Whidbey, South Whidbey, Camano Island, Jefferson County, San Juan County, even Victoria, receive no economic benefit whatsoever from the Growler presence. The only area that wants the Growlers is some of the residents of north Whidbey, and even many of those living there are being harmed and strongly dislike the noise of the Growlers, and would love to see the Growlers go. We hear their complaints, not you. We are, and will be heard in Washington DC. Our country is run by civilians, not the military…..yet.
Joe,
No we aren’t OK. first just because you like to watch FCLP at 525 feet with earplugs for your pictures doesn’t mean that you are a stakeholder in this discussion. If you want to be “one of us” move to the Prarie with your old and infirm parents. then try to sleep, watch TV or read with the jets going over at 120 db every couple of minutes from about 8PM until well after midnight.Explain to them how this is necessary for our security and that the even though our country which spends more on it’s military than the next ten nations combined can’t somehow find the dollars to find another location off ran OLF. be sure to make sure they wear their ear muffs when they sit outside on the porch to watch the deer or just.catch a sunset. Explain to your neighbors who took their kids out of Little League because of noise measured at over 120db just have to suck it up because this is the only place that this practice can take place.
The Growler is a great asset to the protection of our people and their equipment. The only problem we have is them based here, and using the OLF. Your other statements stand. I hope Senator McCain votes his conscience, as he is known to do. The Armed Services Committee will decide what they decide. “Everything is as it will be, until it isn’t.” Nothing is set in stone. The civilians who decide these things are a capricious bunch. One part of the navy is building a base, while another part is preparing to demolish it, as you are well aware. It’s a wonder more things don’t end up as screwed up as the “lawn dart” F-35. Or, do they and we just aren’t informed?
Ralph,
Thank you for writing.
Because we Americans are patriotic enough to believe in process and property rights a new OLF will require a new EIS, ample compensation (eminent domain, aviation easements, the like) and 5-10 years to do. Not to mention the costs of the new OLF itself.
What you propose is to shift the burden onto other Americans for the decisions Central Whidbey and Island County has made. I, being an American who pays taxes and therefore will pay for any American or Washingtonian remedy, have a right to a say.
We the American People can and should allow folks in Central Whidbey who can prove impacts compensation for new ballfields and perhaps a mulligan to buy a new home away not just from the jet noise but from those pusillanimous souls whom bully, torment and harass folks like you who won’t sign their name to their actions. I on the other hand will and when wrong will publicly apologize, as I have done before.
You may not want money to move, but it’s either that or demand over 3,000 other counties pay and wage a long dispossession campaign against other Americans for your right of peace & quiet. Which is it my fellow American because as Americans WE are certainly stakeholders as you so aptly put it?
Thank you.
Joe A. Kunzler
http://Flickr.com/avgeekjoe
Claims the U.S. Navy is an economic engine is a fallacy. Anytime Growlers fly low over any residential community or business there is the possibility of a crash with deadly consequences. We have read about such tragedies with loss of life and homes. Growlers violate clean air standards with toxic jet fuel and OSHA safety standards of less than 85 decibels. Business owners are responsible for the health and safety of their employees. Business owners cannot conduct normal business activities there is no possibility of having a telephone conversation when Growlers are training.
Businesses providing well paying jobs will not consider establishing a business on Whidbey Island due to the constant noise and disruption of Growlers. The U. S. Navy has created a community with NO diversification a threat to the economy of any community.
Disclaimer: This is not an official response and in no way reflects the official opnion of the U.S. Government, Department of Defense, or U.S. Navy.
We are more than aware that your response is in no way an official opinion. While well thought out and intelligent, you ARE responding, the navy hasn’t bothered. Thank you for your comments, thought provoking.
I see Joe is alive a well, good to hear the same old babble from him.
does anyone know how many FCLP have been completed so far this year? If I remember correctly, the EIS stated they were only allowed to fly a certain amount and then they were to stop. That is one of the reason they had to stop last time, the exceeded the amount of flights stated in the EIS.
The navy agreed to limit themselves to 6120 ops ( 3,060 bounces) as they stated they were going to do in their own EA. WE have to do a FOIA to get the number so far. You are right, that’s why they stopped last year, they thought we weren’t counting, and we caught them red handed, so to speak.
I know a number of people who called and emailed the Navy about the altitude of the jets. Low flying Growlers are scary and loud – a total disruption. That’s why the Supreme Court rules a “taking” if they fly under 500 feet. Of course people call to complain. People in Admirals Cove are told they fly at 500 feet. What a coincidence. But look at the chart. They fly 300-440 feet there and probably lower at times. The Navy doesn’t care what gets said to get people off the phone. And,they get to do anything after they’ve done it long enough. The air space becomes an easement. Watch out Freeland and Greenbank. If they start flying over you and you let them, they’ll get their easement over your property, too. They’ll need your airspace, with all the Growlers coming. Where do you think twice as many will fly? Remember the frog in hot water anaology? A frog put in a pan of really hot water will jump out. A frog in water where the temperature is increased slowly will just sit there and cook. Do this instead. Contact Congress. Get email, samples, and more to email the decision-maker who can get them to stop. Go to: http://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/contact-congress/
We are very aware that the navy seldom keeps their word. That’s why we take them to court.
“The Navy can’t run away every time a few folks are annoyed.”
“FEW FOLKS” who happen to be taxpayers not dependent on the government for their livelihood engaged in diversified clean industry. Patriotic Americans do have a constitutional right to enjoy property no matter where they live. “FEW FISH”, many endangered other vital to our food supply and health of the ocean. The U. S. Navy has no right to turn our oceans into toxic soup with deadly sonar reflecting poorly on Americans causing global outrage. Why should whales die from 250 decibels of sonar causing their eardrums and hearts to burst? This is cruel and inhumane.
Whidbey Island in NOT a proper location for loud earsplitting noise from Growlers when there are suitable locations with adequate training space. China Lake has 17.000 square miles of protected air space. U.S. Navy personnel my not find China Lake their ideal place to live but they have made a choice to enlist surrendering their right to where they choose to reside. The U. S. Navy has no right to destroy our desirable area with this menace.
“DECISION MAKERS” have refused to listen to our complaints since 1991 when NAS Whidbey was on the BRAC list. “DECISION MAKERS” held secret meetings using public funds to promote their agenda to benefit only them. “DECISION MAKERS” employed the same tactic in 2005 when NAS Whidbey was once again on the BRAC list. Thank you for at least admitting there is an ongoing problem with “DECISION MAKERS” refusing to listen.
I live about 4 blocks from Pt Hudson with a view of the water directly towards Whidbey. I live on the 3rd floor where I’ve seen growlers flying so close and so low that I don’t have to look “up” to see them – there they are, right out my window. From my sailing experience in this area, I estimate the jets have flown as close as 2/3’s of the way from Whidbey to Port Townsend, if not closer … definitely beyond the “flight pattern” range. When they fly that close it’s reminds me of the air shows where planes fly as close as they can for “show”. I hope people from all over our region respond to the noise pollution of the growlers with firm and enduring disapproval. As bad as the noise is in PT, I cannot even imagine what it’s like in Coupeville. My heart and fury over this is with you.
Obviously this man has not read any of the health information on the damage this is doing to our health…who is Chicken Little?
Does that amount of noise generated “make it right?” The problem is the noise and the damage it causes. Seems like you are saying, “it’s professional, orderly…..” We are talking about the harm the noise causes, Not how “orderly” it looks. Your priorities are skewed way out of kilter.
I removed the comment, I’m sorry, it was not intended that way. While we hope to close the OLF, and have the Growlers moved to a more appropriate place, where there is no harm to the civilians under the flights, there is no desire for the pilots and crews to be placed in harms way. How the navy chooses to fly is, and should be, their decision. Where they fly should be a consideration of the space used, both air and ground. What is the result of the overflights to those on the ground. That is our priority.
“ be prepared to fly in combat. That matters more to me and my family than your peace and quiet.” That comment really surprises and disturbs me. Your lack of care or concern for the very people you are supposedly hired to protect! Aren’t you supposedly protecting our peace and quiet? You feel that harming the civilians under your flights is OK. Strange. Very Strange. But, like you said, our priorities are different.
And – negotiate on the phone with an important buyer/seller, work through a problem in a relationship, take advantage of a teaching moment or effectively discipline a child, fine tune the wording of an important email or letter, sort through a problem with your computer, enjoy romance, praise a dear friend, cherish a two-day visit from someone you haven’t seen in a long time, deal with news of a critical health problem, deal with the hundredth frustration doing something very difficult that you have to sort out in a timely way, have a meaningful moment of praise or prayer, deal with the moss on your roof or painting that must be completed before it starts raining again, enjoy the last few days of enjoyment a swimming pool, learn the software program you must know before the end of the month, finish an important school assignment, console someone that just learned of a devastating loss, plan your vacation of a life-time, repair the car, hang shutters, trim trees, practice an instrument, get the sleep you need to avoid getting sick, participate in stress reducing activities to be better able to deal with the Growler stress the following week, write a poem…
There will be even less of the above when twice the number of jets are flying and they are flying like they did at the beginning of last year. Use the quiet to focus on contacting Congress so decision-makers know what is going on:
http://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/contact-congress/
When it is quiet, the noise is easy to forget. But once the additional jets are here, they will probably be here for good.
Well, while you are flying your jet over us, we are denied these simple pleasures:
And – negotiate on the phone with an important buyer/seller, work through a problem in a relationship, take advantage of a teaching moment or effectively discipline a child, fine tune the wording of an important email or letter, sort through a problem with your computer, enjoy romance, praise a dear friend, cherish a two-day visit from someone you haven’t seen in a long time, deal with news of a critical health problem, deal with the hundredth frustration doing something very difficult that you have to sort out in a timely way, have a meaningful moment of praise or prayer, deal with the moss on your roof or painting that must be completed before it starts raining again, enjoy the last few days of enjoyment a swimming pool, learn the software program you must know before the end of the month, finish an important school assignment, console someone that just learned of a devastating loss, plan your vacation of a life-time, repair the car, hang shutters, trim trees, practice an instrument, get the sleep you need to avoid getting sick, participate in stress reducing activities to be better able to deal with the Growler stress the following week, write a poem…
Thank you LorettaRaze for those marvelous words.
Thanks, that’s a very good idea. We do appreciate the people who chose of their own volition to sign up for this job. They knew what they were signing up for, not that that makes the separation easier. We on the ground should be sent ear protection from them in return. In our case, we don’t receive any protection from the navy, or lifelong compensation from the health problems caused by the noise like people that wanted to do this in the navy get. I would think equal protection and compensation would be fair?
I do believe all those people on the USS CARL VINSON Signed up very willingly for the job. None were forced. We are forced to hear the noise from the flights overhead. Please don’t drag out that old chestnut ” you signed the paper” the paper I signed was not approved by the county as the official notice.
Sonic boom, I doubt, having heard many of them. The thrust of the article was NOT about wheather or not there was a sonic boom. It was the utter violation of the people’s lives. The lack of regard by the navy. The destruction of our way of life without any regard to the citizens living under them. The fear, the tears of children. The psychological as well as medical damage done by the navy to citizens.
The jets fly in and out of major airports in major cities all the time. This was simply a case of getting from Point A to Point B. These guys travel for 200 days a year all over the U.S. in a year when they aren’t deployed overseas. They have to land sometime. I’m not sure how there’s any blame for the Navy for a simple transit flight. There’s always a house next to a runway somewhere. And the bigger issue is the credibility of the people who claim things like “sonic booms.” It’s hard to take them seriously. And you know as well as I do that you can’t prove 1 lick of medical damage- the Seattle doctor that gave you the presentation told you that. We have tens of thousands of people who have worked around fighter jets for 30 years who have zero medical problems. Just out of curiosity, where have you heard these sonic booms – certainly not around OLF Coupeville as the jets don’t travel nearly fast enough there.
Mr Stevens,
Once more you are missing the point. The point, once again, is the disruption of the quality of life of the people the navy is supposed to protect. if there was a sonic boom, and I have heard many growing up in Minneapolis very close to Wold Chamberlain Field, is beside the point. I have not heard one here. The point is the frightening of citizens of our own country when unnecessary. WE are not your enemy, but the way the navy behaves, we feel they are treating us as such! What ever happened to the navy being “good neighbors”?
That has gone by the wayside. We now feel citizens are just acceptable collateral damage in your mission of domination and destruction of the way of life in this area.
You are just using “sonic boom” to take attention away from what happened. A normal tactic when someone is wrong….. Find a straw to cling to. The citizens were afraid for their lives, frightened by navy EA-18G jets. That is the only point.
The medical damage is a proven fact, read your own Wyle report in your own navy documents. Read how the navy damages their own people that actually filled out a job application to work for the military in the “PA 265 Interem Audit Report” documents where even the navy lists the harm caused. The VA pays over a billion dollars a year in hearing damages. We get 0 compensation. Go on our links and files section and read the reports from the navy on harm caused.
Regards
Being exposed to high levels of airport noise could raise your risk of heart disease, according to two new studies published in the British Medical Journal.
( I removed the first study, as it was about Heathrow)
The second study was based on U.S. data and conducted by researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health and Boston University School of Public Health. The researchers looked at 2009 heart-related hospital admission data from 6 million Medicare recipients who lived near 89 U.S. airports.
Just like in the first study, researchers found an association between higher levels of noise and increased risk of hospitalization. Specifically, a 10 decibel increase in aircraft noise in a ZIP code was associated with a 3.5 percent increase in the cardiovascular hospitalization rate. And the people living in ZIP codes with the highest airport noise (more than 55 decibels) also had the highest risk of hospitalization. The results held true even after taking into other potential risk factors, such as socioeconomic status, air pollution and proximity to roadways.
“Our results provide evidence of a statistically significant association between exposure to aircraft noise and cardiovascular health, particularly at higher exposure levels,” the researchers wrote in the study. “Further research should refine these associations and strengthen causal interpretation by investigating modifying factors at the airport or individual level.”
This isn’t the first time noise has been linked with heart risks. A study presented at the American Thoracic Society meeting earlier this year showed an association between cardiovascular disease risk and exposure to air pollution and noise pollution. And HealthDay reported on a study in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives showing that even everyday noise could cause heart rate to go up and negatively affect heart rate “variability” (the ability of the heart to adapt to environmental influences).
I really think that they should tow the real thing(AC Carrier)from Brementon and put it off shore somewhere where it would not impede on ones living standards.
Also to the North End of Whidbey where planes and jets come in for a landing at the airfield I noticed a smokey(chem trail) plane coming in for a landing.Right underneath there were cows eating Chemicalized exhaust in the grass.I sure as hell hope I am not drinking or eating anything from that farm.I am also going to go to the News Media about the health issues and take some video and put it on you tube and such.John
Mr Stevens,
I feel that the practice for the FCLPs should be in as safe a place as possible, not on an AC. Landing on a carrier is the most dangerous feat in all of aviation. But….. this practice should be on an OLF of 35,000 acres such as they wanted on the East coast, not the 667 acres of Coupeville! This lack of buffer zone is what is causing the health damage to the citizens. The navy is harming their own people, but they applied for the job, and are being paid for their injuries. Still please read the second part of this report on the damage to OUR OWN!
please read this report:
Your previous comment was not approved as you were name calling.
USN (& USAF) currently notcompliant with the following standards:
•DoD Design Criteria Std., MIL-STD-1474D, Noise Limits, page 65, para 4.2.1, Aircraft Noise
•DoDI 6055.12, Hearing Conservation Program
•OPNAVINST 5100.23F, Navy Occupational Safety and Health Program Manual
•NAVMEDCOMINST 6260.5 Occupational Noise Control & Hearing Conservation
•AFOSH STD 48-19, Hazardous Noise Program
•AFOSH STD 161-20, Hearing Conservation Program
•OSHA 29 CFR, Occupational Noise Exposure
•85 dBA, 8 hrs, 3 dB/doubling exchange rate (USN until recently was under a 4 dB rate)
USD 5 Aug 01 Memo, Dr. Gansler to ASN & ASAF: “I request you make investing in hearing protection a top(S&T) priority…and a Defense Technology Objective”
E2S2
Be careful and safe, good luck. Come back to your family.
To all the comments about the noise, the destruction of your way of life, the fear and the tears your children you claim were brought on by the Navy flying to low, You make me ashamed
you ungrateful fools,
It is that practice, both day and night that make our Navy the best in the world, you should be honored to hear the roar of the jets overhead, I go out side whenever I hear the sound of one of our Navy jets and I feel proud,
I live in Saxon come fly over my house.
John L.
If the training @ NAS is so Vital,why don’t you get our gov’t to tow a mothballed AC Carrier from Brementon and out it offshore where it won’t impede on noise issues.they can train on thr REAL THING.Our gov’t has lots of money,they throw it @foreign countries,for foreign aid.It might be something to look into…then you can be a Hero!
John, it’s safer to use terra firma than to hit the carrier deck and the water.
Being a hero would be BUYING YOU OUT.
There.
Landing on an aircraft carrier should ONLY be done after huge amounts of practice on land, where the probability of saving lives is better. This practice should no more be done on a carrier than over Central Whidbey. Both are the wrong place for this kind of practice. Beale AFB, China Lake, Moses Lake, Fallon, ElCentro, the list goes on where this FCLP work should be done. NOT COUPEVILLE OLF.
Monday and Tuesday were quiet. But here it is Wednesday at 8 pm when the Navy said they would NOT be flying and it’s noisy as heck!
We schedule as best we can around the announced OLF schedule. I wish the Navy would at least have the decency to honor it.
Babette, depends on the weather. Also considering COER’s low credibility w/ my Navy contacts, need to document with YouTube and the like any problems w/ the OLF schedule.
I am interested in knowing more about what the trainings are for exactly: I believe that there are innocent people being affected in much more detrimental ways than just the noise from these flights. I have lived in Port Townsend for three years. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you.
Please visit our web site: citizensofebeysreserve.com and find the facts on the harm caused by these navy EA-18G jets. Thanks for wanting information. An informed citizen is the best citizen.
I live in Langley and I heard them last night(10/9/2014) in the evening till about 10pm.
Like I said before,our gov’t has enough money to sent aid to foreign countries,then our Gov’t has enough money to get a moth balled Aircraft carrier dragged up here from Bremerton and put off the coast to train on. If they crash and burn they go into the drink and no ones home.I sympathize with you people now that the growlers are here but not when you bought your homes when quieter ones were.Another thing our gov’t should do is buy everyones home from Langley Up to Oak harbor.
john
Carrier landing practice Nancy. Also for entertaining aviation geeks who celebrate when EA-18Gs light the afterburners!
It’s not like this training can come to Skagit County as I want. The commute sucks. A commute for me on a transit system with the word “bankrupt” rotating around it. I have a love/hate relationship with the news in the Federal Register that OLF Coupeville is going to stay… and I’m an aviation photographer.
If the government wants to turn Whidbey into a giant aircraft carrier, they should buy out people that didn’t sign up for “duty”. Otherwise it’s not all about pilot training, non-military people live here too. They have a right to enjoy their property and homes. BTW, it’s Santa Claus.
http://www.cpeo.org/encroachment.html
The EA-18G has done plenty of FCLPs at both Fallon as well as El Centro, according to COER FOIAs, so you are telling me the FOIAs were not true? Did the navy lie on another FOIA. Either that, or perhaps your facts aren’t correct? Check your facts. If you need, I can quote you chapter and verse on the FCLPs in those two places.
I agree with your assumption of the EIS decision of Record will be the navy’s “preferred option” no matter what the “test” results say. That’s a given, everyone knows that.
Your placing the fault on the County is right on, in my humble opinion.
The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the military cushion of compensation. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military does for any noise related medical problems.
We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a military organization that is a bully, as well as a very bad neighbor.
Can I respond to,
“The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the military cushion of compensation. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military does for any noise related medical problems.
We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a military organization that is a bully, as well as a very bad neighbor.”
Slight change if I may:
“The biggest problem still is the medical damage to those of us without the cushion of compensation for Beyond Stupid land use policy hurting our homes and our health. We receive nothing for stress. We receive nothing for being subjected to 134.2 dB. We receive no compensation like the military economic generator does for any noise related medical problems. We, the citizens of Central Whidbey are collateral damage to a Island County real estate industry that is a bully, as well as a very bad friend to the US Navy and its servicemembers’ civilian advocates.”
Thank you.
Question….Were you there PRIOR to the base being built? If so why did you move so close to the existing base?
Many Whidbey Island residents, and several of my friends were peacefully farming their land way before either the base or the OLF were built. Remember, many of the farms on Whidbey were started in the 1880s. That’s 60 years before the base or the OLF. And, native Americans before that. The base and the OLF are the newcomers here, and bad neighbors at that. We were here first, not the navy. The base was built on our farm land. I’ve heard plenty of story’s about the farms where the OLF is from people who were here then, before the military.
To John Stevens,
There are three John’s in this discussion: you, John with a capital J, and john with a little j. Just to clarify, I never offered any options for relocating the Navy. Regarding eminent domain, the government can and does buy out homes around airports. Your pronouncement about buyouts not happening is based on what authority?
Your rhetoric about the Navy “uber alles” is tiresome. We have heard these same arguments ad nausium. The fact is, OLF is an obsolete landing strip in a wildly inappropriate location. The Navy can and should relocate to a more appropriate area. If they can afford billion dollar destroyers, they can afford a new OLF. The real reason the Navy does not want to move the OLF is one of convenience. They want the 15 or so people who staff the facility during use to be able to go home at night. (This info comes directly from a Navy representative.).
The additional Growlers are at the request of Boeing, not the Navy. Boeing has pressured congress for the appropriations so as to keep the production line in business. As always, it is about money. First it was 22 additional growlers, now it is 36! Oh what to believe, is the Navy lying to us? If the EIS results for the additional planes (oh yah, forgot there is no completed EIS for the current planes) is a forgone conclusion, why bother. But the reality is these planes are obviously deleterious to physical, mental and psychological health. Any normal person who has not been indoctrinated into the military mindset can see that.
I appreciate your mitigation suggestions, but the only logical choice is the closure of OLF, or the creation of crash zones and a proper noise buffer around the field through eminent domain. The status quo is simply unworkable. The Navy has been and will continue to slowly ramp things up until they destroy this Island. Ask anyone who has lived here for a couple of decades and, if they are are honest, they will tell you it is noisier than ever before.
Slavery used to be legal, did that make it right?
We have always said that the navy doesn’t care about the citizens of their own country. Now you agree. Like I have said before the citizens of Central Whidbey are acceptable collateral damage to the military in this area. You said, ” the navy has more important things to care about”. That is the problem. The navy has lost sight of the reason for existence, and has become a self perpetuating monster. ITs only reason for existence is to continue creating itself. We citizens are harmed, and for what?
This is a BIG point. The navy is only doing small percentage of its flights over Coupeville? That just attests to the fact that there are way too many military aircraft in our skies flying over populated areas. This flight practice should only be done over un-populated areas. The introduction and increase of the Growler aircraft has turned paradise into hell.
If you will be leading them, I would feel secure. I have full confidence that in the 11 months the OLF wasn’t used, not one pilot went without the proper training, my trust in the people working at the base is very high. And all the crews good. The navy would never sacrifice training a pilot and crew to the level required for flying. They got along then, they can get along without the OLF now. Stop the injuring of the folks on the ground. The navy can get along, and be a good neighbor, without the OLF.
Now , we’re back on subject!
My father who served in the army grew up hunting and fishing on Whidbey Island. He would roll over in his grave if he could see what the navy has done to his beloved island…he was there way before NASWI.
Also, what capacity does Mr. Stevens have to speak for the navy? Who is he paid to protect and defend? Who is paying his salary? If the answer to the last two questions are any other than the tax-paying citizens of these United States…we are in REAL trouble! That is the problem with military and government…they are like spoiled children…they forget who is working to pay the tab!
We certainly deserve more respect than this!
John,
I did not make the comment about “slavery”…you are confusing me with someone else on a few of the issues. I grew up next to an Air Force base…I didn’t have any bad feelings about them…at all. My concern and dismay is not with “the troops”. My distaste is for the individuals who are making the decisions to put military training in the middle of populated areas. While you are at it maybe you can answer a question for me? Okay, if the EA 18 Growler is just the razzmatazz…how come they don’t practice at the OLF when it is foggy? The elevation of Ridgecrest is 2,290 ft. How are you supposed to fly these jets in enemy terrain? Surely you have vertical drops and all manner of unfriendly terrrain and conditions to fly under. Yes, you want a safe training area for your pilots…we do too. It is, however just as important to insure the safety of the public, The OLF is NOT located in a safe spot…period. We actually do have pilots associated with COER…they are just as baffled by the stubborness of retaining this insufficient landing strip as anyone else. In the future don’t just suppose anything. I have had to fight off gangbangers, crack dealers and sexually harassing illegals that were illegally living next to my home…all while my husband travelled for his work (and paid taxes for that joy ride you are having up there). I literally had to walk around with a shot gun over my shoulder to protect my daughter…I know a little about combat….and all that in the good ole US of A!
John Stevens,
Your arrogance is quite something . A perfect example of the codecending military mindset toward civilians. It’s not all about you and your war machines.
To correct you once again, Liz made no comment about slavery. At least try to make an attempt at accuracy if you are going to bloviate all over this website.
“If these jets are so amazing (paraphrased) ‘how come they don’t practice at the OLF when it is foggy?'” Thank you Liz for showing exactly how little you know about what you are arguing against with just one statement. “The OLF is NOT located in a safe spot…period.” This should read “the homes immediately surrounding the OLF are not built in a safe spot…period” since the OLF was there long before those sub divisions. Lastly, please refrain from saying the pilots are taking “joy rides” on your tax dollars. While the flights can be enjoyable and rewarding they are anything but joy rides and every flight serves a purpose wether it is apparent to you or not.
The OLF is a latecomer to the island, sorry, many homes and farms here were started in the 1880s, 60 years before the OLF. The OLF is the intruder.
There are both airline as well as military pilots in COER working with us. We laypeople do appreciate the insight you have given us.
It is amazing how two descriptive words can set Mr. Stevens off on yet another rant. The display of his prejudices and small mindedness only exemplifies the arrogance and narcissism of people, like him, who are corrupted by their own self righteousness.
It never in a million years would have occurred to me to question the actions of the military as I grew up with it in close proximity. After the summers of 2011 & 2012 my understanding of the military actions changed. The flights over our homes were vicious air raids. These flights were completely un-forgivable. When I called the air base and spoke to a Mr. Church his words were “We really nailed you guys!”. I think that the navy needs more accountability for their actions. Common sense is not keeping pace with technology. Just because these jets were made doesn’t make them okay. Brad, your comment in itself is an admission that the OLF is no longer safe. You are accusing the homes around the OLF of not being safe. The horse is out of the barn, Brad…the homes are there.
That is so sad. Too many hours of this horrible, shreaking, deafening noise. What is wrong with Ault Field that they need to spend almost 8 hours flying in Coupeville?
The flight pattern seems to have changed. The jets used to be close, but they are taking a wider swing now and flying directly over my property. Another example of the Navy doing whatever they please. I guess I am now in a crash zone, oh forgot, there are no crash zones at OLF. Let’s see, are there any houses directly under final approach and departure at Ault Field. No!!! Thanks Navy for your blatant attack on my health and sanity.
Dear Robin,
They do it because they can. Somewhere along the way people’s rights were taken away….and they are going to have to fight really hard to get them back. I have left the island because I cannot live under these air raids. I will however, continue to work towards getting this situation remedied and I hope you will too. Write your congressman and senators and if they don’t respond…don’t re-elect them. That is the clearest message that you can send them. There needs to be a LOT more control over the military and how what they do effects the citizenry.
The difference is that the OLF, the proximity to unprotected humans is so great that the noise from the Growlers is causing deadly harm to living things. At Ault Field, there is a buffer, so the navy is mainly harming their own. Both are dispicable.
Make sure to come to the noise meeting at the Greenbank Progressive Clubhouse Thursday at 7:00 It’s behind the Greenbank Store at Bakken and Firehouse. You will hear things that curl your hair they are so bad. The navy is harming us more than you realize.
Lots of optimism at the Greenbank meeting tonight with so many committed to a goal of a positive solution to the militarization of the Pacific Northwest. The U. S. Navy has terrorized all areas surrounding NAS Whidbey and Coupeville OLF. The noise is incompatible with quality of life.
Enough arrogance – think about the people who live here….
We are just rejoicing for the folks living off island. They finally get a chance to partake in the scoping process. The last series of scoping meetings, they were totally left out! No arrogance intended at all. There are three scoping meeting slated for this area, Coupeville High School Commons area Tuesday October 28, 4:00-8:00. Oak Harbor, Wednesday October 29, Oak Harbor Elks Lodge, Anacortes Thursday October 30 at the High School.
Please join us and attend the meeting of your choice. Make your voice heard.
Residents of Camano Island are seriously impacted by the Navy Noise; we’re just east of Coupeville, for those who don’t know geography. We are directly in the flight path of much of the activity, particularly squadron relocations late at night that last for hours and make it impossible to sleep.
Everyone seems focused on the “local noise”, but what about the countless flights over Olympic National Park? No one seems to care that these planes are polluting a National Heritage Site, one of America’s greatest places, what used to be one of the best human noise-free sites left. We hike these wilderness trails and are now ALWAYS greeted with LOW-flying planes going along the ridgelines flying like they’re spying on us. They’re ‘saving America’ only to have these kids fly circles over Olympic? They’re destroying our heritage in the process. Stop flights over Olympic NP NOW.
They own the airspace over the Olympics? My god! this must be stopped!
Dear Larry,
I am sorry that there is more bad news on the way:
http://www.theolympian.com/2014/10/18/3376770_navy-plan-for-radar-detection.html?rh=1
It is just plain weird that it is necessary (?) to destroy the Pacific Northwest in order to “save” the rest of the country.
They’ve been flying pretty regularly over Sequim for the past couple of months. Sounds like the citizens here should be invited to take part in the process as well. LaConner should also be included. It gets pretty loud over there.
Watch all the videos…there is a severe disconnect…this must be fixed. Congress must step in and stop the damage!
I live in Port Townsend. The growler noise is very disturbing to me. Especially at night when I am trying to sleep. I always think for what it would be like to live in a war zone. Not a comforting thought.
This summer I was in Winthrop in late August and at Klaloch, on the coast in Sept. Growlers disrupted my peaceful vacation in both places.
let’s work towards PEACE in the world rather than practicing for war.
Does this make all the people living in the war zone that the navy has created in Washington the “bad” ones? The navy should practice in areas that they have already desolated such as China Lake and the desert near Fallon. There is clear evidence that shows that the actions of the navy ARE harming people. Many, many studies have been done to show the health problems caused by the very activities that the navy is doing. We are being harmed by our own military. Denial just isn’t working.
By practicing for war, one is sure to eventually engage in war, necessary or not. How many of the wars since WWII have been declared by congress? Zero! How many of those wars have been truly necessary? Debatable, but the expense of blood and treasure does not seem to solving any of our problems. Indeed, one of the side affects has been to create new problems, one being the Navy’s Growler assault on the citizens of Whidbey Island.
I live here in Langley.I can hear the growlers here, not too bad though.I feel sorry for you folks up past Greenbank.Your stuck, how will you ever sell your home.even a deaf person will feel the shake rattle and roll.My house goes on the market after the 1st of the year even if they don’t get 39 more growlers and cease ops @ NAS.to be honest I dislike Gov’t here.to sell your house Island county taxes a portion of sales price.then you got to have your septic taken care of.good idea,but I think unfair to the seller.this is the only place I have heard of such a thing.I’ve lived all over this country.
Can’t wait to get off this rock and to better weather.Good luck to you people on the north end.
http://www.fs.fed.us/nepa/nepa_project_exp.php?project=42759
make sure you that you make your comments A.S.A.P.
Just wait until the new EIS comment period is over!
Hey Babette, oh joy, EA-18Gs w/ afterburners for Christmas!! If you choose to live there and you don’t love airplanes, well then ask Santa for a new home. Frankly you sound just like a Santa Clara 49ers fan moving next to CenturyLink Field.
In case you didn’t notice by now: EA-18Gs are awesome. EA-18Gs are loud. EA-18Gs should overfly every single Seahawks home game in full afterburner. EA-18Gs should give rides to OLFers – OLF Coupeville’s “12th Man”.
Also hope Santa burns your coal like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/avgeekjoe/14380714689/in/set-72157645530820233
I’ll be there ;-). #OLFme
I’ve seen your comments like this several times now and I’ve got to speak up. There may be nothing more mean-spirited than suggesting someone should leave their home. Lots of these people have already had to leave to save the health and sanity of their family. You must know the value of a home – the dreams it represents, the effort working and saving for years, the time it takes to move and make it a personal place, the care required to customize it for a family, the challenge on occasion to make the monthly payments, the equity that is counted on to be there to take care of expenses in later life. There must be a better way to get what you want than taunting people who are losing their most important possession. Especially since the meanness won’t accomplish anything, really. Frankly, you sound just like . . .
Here’s my submission to the Forest Service, Kilmer, Cantwell and Murray. I essentially submitted your URGENT UPDATE: ELECTROMAGNETIC WARFARE over OLYMPIC NATIONAL PARK, edited (spell and grammar check) and revised slightly…feel free to copy… THANK YOU!
To: U.S. Forest Service November 19, 2014
“Caring for the land and serving the people.”
To Whom It May Concern:
Regarding the U.S. Navy’s intention to use the Olympic National Park, and thus the Olympic Peninsula as training grounds for their electromagnetic radiation emissions mobile units and Growler flight pathways, here are my comments and questions. Please reply.
1. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by their failure to adequately notify the public about their project. Tiny notices placed in obscure locations, and published in distant newspapers do not adequately inform the public, as Federal law requires.
Questions: Why were the communities where this testing is to be done not notified? Why were no public hearings held for the Navy’s drafting of their EA? Why were no local newspapers notified? Why were no local elected officials and/or emergency teams such as firefighters notified?
2. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not notifying or consulting with Olympic National Park as they drafted their Environmental Assessment (EA). This project will severely impact the wilderness experience for millions of visitors to the Park every year. By law, the National Park should have been consulted when the Navy was drafting their plans.
Questions: Why was the Olympic National Park not notified or consulted by the Navy during the drafting of this EA? Does the Navy have records of their consultation with the Park? If they do, why are they not available for the public to see? Isn’t if the Forest Service’s responsibility to verify this? Why hasn’t the Forest Service conducted a formal investigation of this violation?
3. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not addressing future and cumulative impacts of the project. Federal Law requires that these be fully disclosed and analyzed. The Navy states that their project aims to “accommodate growth in future training requirements”, yet they do not specifically disclose what that growth will include, nor analyze its impacts. According to the Navy’s own briefs, the interception and disabling of signals by their planes, called Growlers, plays a central role in electronic warfare training. As such, the Navy must address this very plausible escalation in their EA. All future phases of the Electronic Warfare Training Project must be fully disclosed and evaluated in full. This is Federal law. The Navy is not permitted to disclose their plans incrementally or attempt to disguise their bigger plans by a “piecemeal” approach. USFS Ranger Dean Millett has stated that he is not considering the larger plan of the Navy’s, but is limiting his “decision space” to just the use of Forest roads for the emitters. He is not considering the supersonic jets–either their noise or their radiation–in his decision.
Questions: Why is not only the Navy, but the Forest Service, narrowing their focus so dramatically, when NEPA clearly states that the entire project and its impacts need to be included? Separating out partial aspects of the bigger project, (which includes many supersonic Growler jets practicing with active attack radiation), is clearly part of the future training program and needs to be fully disclosed and analyzed. Exactly how much radiation will be projected from each of the Growler jets in one day’s training as they practice their warfare tactics? Why is the Forest Service not demanding full transparency and full disclosure as Federal law mandates? On average, how many training missions will take place per 24 hour period? How long will each Growler be airborne during training missions that fly over the Olympic National Park?
4. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not using the most recent and “best available science” in their conclusion that there will be “No Significant Impact” from their project. Their supporting science documents are weak and sorely outdated. Thousands of recent, peer-reviewed studies indicate there are very real harmful effects—both to humans and to wildlife— from man-made electromagnetic fields. The Navy sited only one very dated and narrow experiment on DNA fragmentation to justify their claim that electromagnetic radiation is harmless. (See the Navy’s EA 3.1.1.2). They have chosen to ignore thousands of rigorous scientific studies. The Navy’s EA is sorely deficient in this regard, and as such, it violates Federal law. When the public brought this serious deficiency to the attention of Ranger Millett, he replied that the Navy’s science is “good enough” for him.
Questions: Why is the Forest Service not demanding that the Navy use the most recent and best available science? Because the project will include active, focused use of electromagnetic weaponry, pointed down towards the earth, the damage to living systems will be significant. Why is the Forest Service not addressing this? Why are they allowing the Navy to manipulate the NEPA process in this manner when the flaws and deficiencies of the Navy’s EA are so blatant? Isn’t it the Forest Service’s responsibility to demand that the Navy fully disclose all impacts of this project, including the future escalation of the training? Why is the Forest Service skirting their responsibilities? Why is the Forest Service not protecting the forest and its visitors from this potentially harmful project? Isn’t it the responsibility of the Forest Service to protect the forest and its visitors from any potentially harmful project?
5. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by failing to address the impacts this electromagnetic radiation will have on bees, butterflies, birds and bats as well as a multitude of other small animals and insects. Because the current worldwide Bee Colony Collapse is such a threat to our food security, the President of the United States has called for all government agencies, including the Department of Defense and the Department of Agriculture, to make the protection of pollinators a critical priority. Scientists have found that man-made electromagnetic radiation radically disrupts bees’ ability to navigate and find their way back to their hives. Also the Navy’s assessment does not address the harm this radiation causes to amphibians. These omissions in the Navy’s EA render the document sorely deficient. As such, the Navy’s EA is a violation of NEPA.
Questions: Why is the Forest Service not requiring the Navy to address the impacts of this project on bees, birds, bats, butterflies, and other insects as well as amphibians? Numerous scientific studies document very real harm to these creatures from man-made electromagnetic fields. Why is this being overlooked? Why is the Forest Service not requiring comprehensive studies of the flora and fauna in the forests they are supposed to be protecting?
6. The Navy violated NEPA procedure by not addressing at all the following areas where impacts will be experienced. Federal Law requires that the Navy fully analyzes and discloses all potential impacts—direct, indirect and cumulative— of their project. Neither the Navy nor the Forest Service is permitted to dismiss the following issues:
A. Noise from the airplanes: This was completely ignored in the Navy’s EA. The “soundscape” of Olympic National Park and the surrounding wilderness areas will be severely impacted by squadrons of supersonic jets practicing overhead most days of the year. This noise will also greatly impact thousands of citizens’ “quality of life” who are forced to live directly underneath these flight paths.
Question: How and when is this issue going to be addressed?
B. Pollution: The Navy did not address the pollution, both chemical and electromagnetic, that would be produced from the airplanes. The chemical pollution alone from just one of these jets is tremendous.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
C. Land-use, traditional use, cultural use: Since the early 1900s, these pristine coastal regions and forests have provided critical habitat and protected sanctuary for wildlife. This area, long used by millions of visitors every year for recreation, will radically be altered by the Navy’s project. The noise, the pollution, and the electromagnetic radiation would destroy any wilderness experience and severely impact recreational use in a negative way.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
D. Economic and social impacts: Visitors to the Olympic National Park are a driving force of the economies of this region. Degrading the Park, as this project threatens to do, could have a huge negative impact on the Peninsula’s economy, as families choose to go elsewhere for their vacations because of the hazards to public health and the disruptive noise. The Olympic Peninsula would also no longer be a desirable place to live, and real estate prices could plummet.
Question: How and when are these issues going to be addressed?
7. If the Forest Service grants this permit, they are in violation of their own management plan, and the National Forest Management Act. The Department of Defense does not have the right to override the Forest Service’s own management plan and this Act. Electronic warfare training is not consistent with the public purposes for which national forests are reserved.
According to the US Forest Service’s own regulations, military use our public lands is not permissible if the military has other “suitable and available” lands for their proposed action. Every viable alternative needs to be considered.
Questions: The military has hundreds of thousands of “suitable and available” acres of remote lands that are used for just this kind of hazardous testing and training. Why isn’t the Navy using those lands for this project instead? Why hasn’t the Forest Service required the Navy to use these other lands that are “suitable and available”?
8. Finally, the Forest Service’s own management policy states that when considering issuing such a permit, “the interests and needs of the general public shall be given priority over those of the applicant.” The public has spoken loudly about this issue and have communicated clearly what their needs and desires are, and continue to do so.
Question: Why are the needs and desires of the general public NOT being given priority over the desires of the Navy?
Sincerely,
Lois Barnett
619 Clay St #314
Port Townsend, WA 98368
360.385.6877
how is anyone supposed to plan anything with the navy’s fluid scheduling?
What a typical arrogant response from you…ho hum….yawn
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Such rubbish Mr. Stevens
Mr Stevens,
Are you even aware that your words show you to be a bully? These folks have a genuine problem. By belittling them on this public forum of veritable strangers, you only show visitors your noisy preference to flaunt mean-spiritedness instead of simply remaining silent. I came here a stranger seeking info. I leave here with two things I didn’t expect. First, is your name. Second, is worrying if there are other, more immediate things in your life, that actually deserve compassion, but which you find more pleasure in belittling.
I appreciate the silence and the saving of carbon based fuel. Thanks for posting this.
Oh really?
Only the persons in uniform were actual “Navy.” Most of those there to answer questions were civilians who work for the Navy and I talked to a fellow who said he is from General Dynamics and contracts with the Navy. There was another woman I overheard telling some folks she was a contractor but she disappeared before I could ask her “with whom?” Corporations are obviously very involved in all of this and I would like to know just how and how much.
John, your aircraft is just a big toy, and you a glorified bus driver. Get over yourself! The people of Whidbey want peace and quiet, not money as you allege. The navy has plenty of other, more appropriate places they can do their job.
Due to the lies, innuendo, name calling, and arrogance shown by certain commenters, they will no longer be posted. This space is for comments, not name calling.
Due to the arrogance, name calling, bullying, and general disrespectful conduct of certain commentators, their comments will no longer be posted. When a civil discussion can be maintained, posts will be posted.
Thank you for helping me keep up with the noise pollution, I really appreciate your efforts!
By the Navy’s own count, there were 377 attendees at this Port Townsend scoping meeting. Obtained from the two girls with the clickers at the door just before they left. While the call is that the Navy HEAR us, there is absolutely NO indication that they care what we’re saying. That was very evident from the response of the main Navy spokesperson who had flown in from Virginia…that they would be doing this regardless of what anyone said. And, many of the people presenting were either civilian Navy or private contractors who were sent in to stand at the tables. For more background and many links on this issue, go to https://www.facebook.com/protectolypen
I doubt they will follow this schedule. Supposedly they were not supposed to fly this entire week and its been non-stop instead. This is supposed to be peaceful living, I had more quiet living in Everett by Paine Field.
I always supported the military until I started reading the arrogant, entitled comments by members regarding this issue. If someone would apologize for inconveniencing people by busting windows, keeping people awake at 1 a.m. who need to go to school or work early in the morning, but point out that the exercises are an integral part of their training, it would be one thing. But to call people uneducated, say they don’t care what others think, just puts me off the military completely. We pay your salaries, we pay for your expensive jets, we pay for your veterans’ hospitals, and we lack money for important things like education and infrastructure in this country because of it. Talk about entitled.
Please stop ruining our natural areas. I went to deception pass yesterday and it was amazing, but the plane noise kind of ruined it.Also i’m concerned about fly overs of Olympic national park, for wild life and people alike. We go to these areas to get away from noise,the city and enjoy the piece and quite of nature and not having to wear earmuffs to prevent hearing damage, in a wilderness area! Please figure out a way to keep natural areas quite, but still run your operation. I appreciate all the good you guys have done over the years ans hope we can create a win, win situation for the navy and nature lovers and I do not want people who enjoy being part of the military to have to drop out or not be able to join and fallow there passion and nature lovers and wild life loosing out.
Thanks
Harrison
Thanks for your helpful words Mr.Stevens! Gee golly I will get right on that! Something tells me you are okay with loud jets and the Navy taking over the islands. Those of us former military did not choose to live on a military base again. I have empathy for you though, sounds like you only have skills that are dependent on the Navy expanding their empire.
I heard they were flying on 12/23?
They changed their mind, as they do so often. They may be not telling the truth, also as they do so often. It’s the navy, what do you expect? The truth?
All I was trying to do is help everyone. Were else could we move the military base? If we move it the Olympic peninsula we will affect our national parks. If you feel that strong, I know of one idea. The commercial jets have legally required mufflers on there jet engines and military should do the same, imagine a 747 with out a muffler!!! But here is one thing, what if the military was gone and we were attacked by terrorists or a war started, then what? I’m on your side tough, visiting deception pass it was so loud, I had to were ear muffs waiting for the bus just outside the park. What should happen for sure in the military should have the same noise regulations as passenger airports do. What do think we should do.
At the very least Noise noise regulations would really help.
Harrison,
We do not advocate not having the Growlers as one of the jets we need to defend our country. We are just against where these are posted. They belong in an area where there is not the collateral damage to civilians. Send them to the desert.
Thank you for your concern. COER does not advocate closing the base, just moving the Growlers to a better place, one where the noise caused by the EA-18G Growler does not create the collateral damage to civilian population as is happening now.
Our country must have a military, no argument there. Where they are is the contention
This is not how our military should work. Something is wrong here, very wrong.
Thank you Jim! Also dear COER…I am going to have to disagree with you on one item. The only relief from these excessive technological “experiments” in the beautiful Pacific Northwest and Whidbey Island is to close NASWI. This base should simply be moved (with the Growlers) to an area that has been already devastated by military training….damage control! Fallon, Nevada and China Lake come to mind.
Upton Sinclair — ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’
Would mufflers on jets help. If we send them to eastern Washington, wouldn’t there response to an emergency be to slow?
Ps I live in burien Seattle area, i’m just trying to help people there and make the park a better place for all.
I am sittings as I have most of the day in front of my screen waiting for some sensible response to what has been god awful day of enduring the noise
I live on the very most southern end of Lopez Island- I arrived here exactly two years ago December 27th anticipating retreat
Your accuracy of design implementation results and then the human and environment abandon is vivid- as so many written accounts of thought or plea
My mind today stretched to the imagined whole picture being an artist deep thinker and beyond sensitive concluded nothing can prevent what is in our path. To suggest the spotted Owl as an endangered species is not even good enough to start with as I am thinking suicide when my life and health are impacted so severely. I came here totally invested – I have what to leave with and how to ?
Today the planes were active from 6 am till 10pm growlers starting at 2:30 pm and non stop till 10pm as possibly they just shut down
My entire body is pulsing with frayed nerve sensation. I keep thinking of hell . That I watched the resident bald eagles fly unison today to one as the growler flew over the male flew off in jared fear.
That is shocking. we have the right to wilderness and peace and quit. First they ruin parks in whibey island and peaceful, low populated amazing San Juan islands and now want to ruin our national park that supposed to be protected form fly overs. Send the growlers to a underpopulated place away from outdoor recreation such as skiing and hiking is eastern Washington, were they bother anyone. We already have lost a lot of peaceful, quit areas to live and play, we shouldn’t let the navy take even more from us, especially on public lands!!!!
Thus is a outrage!
Dearest Nora,
You are not alone….Many, many of us feel or have felt the same way. When you feel this way you have to call a friend right away. Many people are just feeling trapped. Work with others to find a way to make escape routes for yourselves when you are under these air raids…I know all to well how overwhelming they are. Feel a collective hug from all of us and know that we care about you! Hang in dear girl! You can NOT let this get the better of you. CAll your politicians, COER hotline and anybody that you can think of to let out your frustration. You have a ton of dedicated indivduals working to mitigate this situation….Again, HANG IN THERE!
Wow that is shocking. We need to reduce pollution and fuel consumption, not increase it. Not only is noise pollution hurting people and and wild life, now air pollution is doing the same thing. We should reduce noise and use military bio fuels to make this planet a better place. Also the military should have some rules and restrictions as far as were they can set up operation and noise restrictions and not just be able to do what they want. I appreciate the military and all they do and all they have done, thank you, but at least respect people and wildlife and wilderness areas.
That is a lot of violations and lying. We should do something about that.
This is Nora
You must be aware they are flying over my home this evening 1/7/15 literally over this site as they did yesterday but tonight none stop over my home
But to express feeling the trap besides being trapped That what ever sensor radar is being used is being felt in my body I actually can tell from a distance when they start up this radar before a plane is near
Tonight the radius they are flying over me the time frame is about every two to five minutes
I return to my appeal of help and how is this possible to void out the people under their path
Please call in the FBI if that is what is being suggested by your post today
I have sent of three different ”flyers” to everyone I know to sign your petitions to make comments to educate that is over 100 people around the USA and some abroad
I was told to go sit on their runways arm in arm and get arrested but I am ill so pass this along to get media involved sit on their runways
As I said before, can’t that navy find a empty non wilderness field in eastern Washington were they will not bother people or wild life at all. The people in the navy do great thongs ( thank you) But how about a win win situation. If anyone on this site wants to respond to my opinion, feel free.
Please be aware that there is a Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/KilmerWatch devoted to Legislative Watch District 6 WA. If you are interested in following his votes and posting about them, please LIKE the page and then go to the “get notifications” under the liked ikon and check it.
Another beautiful day in victoria and gardening season is starting. Usually I head out and enjoy the peaceful calm of my garden and love sharing it with the soft sounds of my chickens and the local bird population. Today the only sounds I heard were the loud, low, ominous rumbling sounds of growler jets coming from the Widbey Island Airforce base. I have been hearing them from inside my home for the better part of two years with recent months days the sound so loud the windows shake. Hearing them all day long as I work outside is even worse. I resent the noise pollution in my neighborhood. I fear for the lost income from tourists to our area who do not wish to be exposed to constant noise from the american military jets. My farm animals are in a constant state of adjitation as the ground shaking feels like the start of an earthquake. My distress levels are rising daily. I understand that more jets have been purchased and will be used even more frequently in this densely populated area. I find this to be completely unacceptable. I urge the US government to seriously consider the tremendous negative impact this current practice is having not only on its citizens but Canadians as well.
Jim Nollman — we’d appreciate your posts to the Protect Olympic Peninsula Facebook page.//LS
Thank you for asking the navy to finally provide adequate analysis of the impact their planned activities would have on the environment here on the Olympic Peninsula!
We here in Pacific Beach have been following the conversation with growing despair, and have participated in it when navy representatives came to our community. The information we’ve been given has been sadly lacking in honest information. You have the authority to demand said information and I for one very much appreciate that you are doing just that!
Our local economy has taken a hard hit in order to preserve species such as the spotted owl and is just now recovering by building a new economy on tourism. People come here “because it’s so peaceful”. Growlers overhead for up to 16 hours a day would certainly impact the peacefulness negatively. Allowing military use of this environment would make a mockery out of past efforts to protect it.
Thank you again!
sincerely,
Karin Phifer
Pacific Beach, WA 98571
The navy is going to ruin our national parks and wild life. The fly overs will hurt people and wild life alike, with the noise. The pollution from the jet exhaust will harm or kill sensitive plants that are critical to wild life. I heard earlier that the navy plans on sending ground troops in certain wilderness areas and with out notice, they can shut down access roads and hiking trials. If for example some one planed a back packing trip mounts in advance, they preserve camping sites, drive a long way to to get to the start of there trip only to find the road closed, would a huge blow to them. Our national parks our supposed to be for escaping the world, allow free access and be a safe home for wildlife. Thank you to the military for everything they have done over the decades and still doing today, but can we find a place were they can practice all they want and that will not affect people or wild life.
GREAT LETTER RANDY-from the folks in port townsend.
A big thank you to the forest service for tasking the navy to provide accurate and honest information regarding their proposals!
This doesn’t mean that they won’t be flying over the Olympics that week, does it?
Unfortunately, it just means they won’t be flying at Coupeville Outlying Field
What is the military doing in that photo? Are those weapons? Will they harm marine life, birds and wildlife with toxins? Will the Navy bring in heavy vehicles what is their route? Are permits required from the state for the Navy to bring heavy equipment over Deception Pass Bridge? Do we need citizens to monitor activity on Deception Pass Bridge to provide witnesses to any damage? The U. S. Navy has no boundaries. What right does the Navy have to control the activities of citizens? How can the Navy justify disruption of business for ten days?
Don’t you know……. NATIONAL SECURITY. Anything can be done in the all powerful phrase NATIONAL SECURITY. If the navy can’t cover themselves any other way, they huff themselves to full height, and cry out ” IT’S FOR NATIONAL SECURITY!” So is my dog…….. B.S. navy hogwash of the first order.
Context? Proof? Not requirements, I suppose, for your organization. The bottom of the Olympic MOA airspace is 6000′. As in no lower than. You’re purposely misleading people to sign your petition. Do you realize that? I know you hate the Navy, but come on…
6,000 feet above sea level at the area they will be flying is 1,200 feet above GROUND LEVEL. The places they want to fly over are in the mountains, not at sea level. This is the figure quoted by the navy. Their words, not ours.
Don’t hate the navy, just where they want to practice.
I agree with the environmental impact statement on the navy’s plans.
We live on Vancouver Island, BC Canada and the noise and rumbling from aircraft on Whidby Island is disturbing and scary. We thought it was earthquakes until Whidby Island was mentioned in media. The pilots should use simulators instead. What is the reason for these flights? I have heard references to electro-magnetic radiation and even the possible involvement of H.A.A.R.P in Alaska which, if true, is hardly reassuring.
What about the orca whales and other wildlife? 1,300 gallons of fuel per plane is ridiculous and falls on our drinking water, lakes and streams. Between this and sonar games from Navy vessels, our resident orcas hardly stand a chance.
Please think of our planet for future generations (your children).
Thank you, Leah and Marty
Now there are 5 of these proposals with the new one being the 7 escort (Nuclear Submarines) ships that will be birthed inside Ediz Hook where there is a wonderful artifical reef.
How about no flying after 10pm, or better yet no night flying at all!
Thanks Coupeville for being a COER pet. Duly noted is, “we request that there be no increase in the number of flights/hours of flight allowed under the current EA”.
I think you know what comes next…
Of course, our elected leaders are very slow, but eventually they wake up to the damage the Growlers are doing in this area.
Jeez. Am I missing something? Did he not address anywhere in this letter how we would like the navy just to train elsewhere? Not over our national forest and park?
Nope, he works for the navy, remember?
The jets are so wide spread now, they are flying over Burien 10 miles south of Seattle were I live. Can’t they st lest fly higher over head and have similar noise restrictions as the commercial airports do?
I think those are all great ideas you have. But i’m concern still about the navy blocking off wilderness access, ruining the silence that makes those wilderness places so special and wild life, so please send operations to eastern Washington. Like Nancy Botta said I agree the training should be some elsewhere and Nancy we should have them train in a abandoned field in eastern Washington that is possibly 100,000 acres, that way the navy can spread out over a massive area, away from people and wildlife. We should thank the navy for all they do, but make a win, win situation.
Everything is very open with a very clear clarification of the issues.
It was really informative. Your site is
very useful. Thank you for sharing!
Derek Kilmer was Norm Dicks’ hand picked successor. And Norm Dicks was fully on board with both the Navy and Boeing. So it will take a lot more to move Kilmer to oppose what the Navy wants to do. This letter simply restates what anyone who went to the town halls already knows. He has helped us be heard. But that’s not enough. Far from it.
Thank you navy all you have done, but please do not ruin the wilderness. We have already had enough wilderness destroyed and we do not need anymore. We go there for the peace and quit and freedom to use any trial anytime we want. Please don’t tear up roads and make them unsafe and fill the national park with load ruin it and ruin it, finally stay on trial or road and leave no trace so we can enjoy the park fro years to come. I can’t believer you ignored public comments.
we could hear the things
all over the south end of the
Island all afternoon
The navy warfare games are going to make sound and light pollution far worse in olympic national park and i’m glad to see something done about it.
THANK YOU, CITIZENS OF EBEY’S RESERVE, FOR YOUR ELOQUENCE IN DETAILING OUR COMMUNITY CONCERN AND FOR HOLDING OUR FELLOW CREATURES OF LAND, SEA, AIR WITHIN THIS PAPER!
WE HAVE LONG HELD THAT THIS TYPE OF TRAINING NEEDS TO BE SOME WHERE ELSE ~ WHERE IT WON’T IMPACT COMMUNITIES OR WILDLIFE/HABITAT! THE KIND OF ‘PROTECTION’ THE NAVY WANTS TO PURSUE ON THE OLYPEN
IS CONTRARY TO QUIET ENJOYMENT OF OUR PRISTINE WILDERNESS, WHICH IS WHY MOST ALL OF US ARE HERE!
THE WHALES, OWLS, ELK, TREES ARE ALL FINDING A VOICE IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, TOO, WITH UNESCO’S RECENT
CONCERN AND INVOLVEMENT.
THANK YOU FOR A CONTINUED, ON-GOING PATHE TO PEACE FULL RESOLUTION FOR ALL WHO LIVE BENEATHE THE
AIRWAYS OF THIS MONUMENTAL DISTURBANCE!!
PERHAPS WE MIGHT ALSO ADDRESS THE RECENT RADICAL INFLUX OF CHEM-TRAILS IN OUR SKIES, TOO!?!
HELEN DUSEK
SEQUIM, WA
Excellent letter, COER.
I am in total agreement. Find somewhere else to practice.
Great piece of writing. I’d send it also to major media:: Seattle Times, NPR, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times. Maybe Crosscut.com for local coverage. Good luck. We may need luck.
Thankyou DNR! Very grateful, and reassuring that you are representing the welfare of our natural environment. Brings hope that not everything is working against citizens and preservation of forests, and all the life that live there.
The Navy AND all government agencies involved with permitting this travesty have lost their moral compass. The areas on the Olympic Peninsula involved include UNESCO World Heritage Sites and marine and wildlife sanctuaries that are protected by LAWS passed by Congress. To allow the Navy to break laws in the name of ‘Homeland Security’ is absurd. There are other desert areas they can practice in/over, if they must, that will NOT endanger marine life, flora and fauna of protected sanctuaries! The Navy has been killing whales, dolphins and other marine life all over the world for years (read War of the Whales) with no repercussions so now they have puffed out their chest to do whatever they want with impunity. THIS IS ILLEGAL AND WRONG! The military is bankrupting our country and now they are starting to destroy our protected sanctuaries and World Heritage Sites! This is NOT in the interest of America or of common sense – to destroy to protect.
Thank you Jan, I think since Ebey’s NHR includes OLF Coupeville & Fort Ebey we should park one of these emitters at Ebey’s NHR. You know, during an OLF Day :-). You’re on the Ebey’s Board, you should love OLF more.
Also park other emitters in Oak Harbor, Sedro-Woolley, Mukilteo, Seattle and such. If they’re so harmless, what’s the harm in training in urban environments too?
Joe, OLF is not in the reserve. Please get your facts straight before you bloviate.
Steve,
OLF is part of the Ebey’s NHR. For instance, http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/ebla/adhi/chap8.htm , “The Navy’s Outlying Field (OLF) on Smith Prairie lies near Highway 20 at the southeastern entrance to the reserve. It includes a practice landing area the size and shape of an aircraft carrier deck. During the comprehensive planning stage of 1978-1980, Reed Jarvis and the citizen’s advisory committee identified Smith Prairie as an important entrance point to the reserve.”
Also senior NAS Whidbey Island officials concur.
Furthermore, it would be very difficult for DAHP & the Ebey’s NHR to influence OLF in any way otherwise. Can’t have it both ways Steve, so figure it out. At Ebey’s NHR’s own risk….
Cheers mate.
That story is all true, and send the navy to 100,000 acres in eastern Washington, no people or wild life harmed.
That is good news
Your not going to ruin our national park!!
Joe, once again OLF is not part of the reserve. It is indeed at the southern entrance but not in it. Nice try at obfuscation.
This is good news finally were getting justice.
.-. .- -.– / — .- -… ..- … -….- .- -. ..- …
National Parks should not be used for military testing. The Navy should be prohibited from encroaching on the peace and tranquility of Olympic National Park.
I’ve called your COER number to let them know I’ve called to report noise twice today. They were disruptive at 3 PM in PT and now it is 9 PM and the noise is deafening form inside my home. 9 PM!
The Growlers from Whidbey Island Naval base are the loudest experience I have encountered in my life. The old Prowlers were easy compared to them. In my yard, on the beach in Port Townsend or on Whidbey Island the sound is completely overwhelming. They often fly all day and night leaving no escape. And now the Navy wans to add 36 more and fly throughout the Olympic Peninsula! Olympic National Park is a world Heritage site, a major tourist destination (as is Port Townsend) and jets are routed around it to respect this and the one square inch of silence. Last summer while hiking the Elwah and Sol Duc Rivers I heard and recorded Growlers flying overhead day and night throughout the 5 days we were there. This is inconsistent with the use and intent of these natural areas. To add 36 more and practice war games throughout the Peninsula abandons the mission of intent the National Forest Service is bound to protect. Please protect the Olympic Peninsula from overwhelming noise pollution for the benefit of all. Thank you.
Please I am as patriotic as the next person but the sounds of all these jets for hours and hours on end, makes me feel like I live in a war zone minus the actual bombs. Please cut down on some of the practices. Thank you.
Please call Cantwell (202-224-3441), Murray ( 202-224-2621), Larsen (202-225-2605), and Kilmer (202-225-5916) and voice your complaints! Thanks
No electronic war games in our Pristine forest/National Park
If they do not fly today due to bad weather, doesn’t that just mean they will fly longer hours tomorrow? Or are they generally sticking to their announced schedule? Does anyone know?
I am asking this question because I try to schedule my activities, especially outdoor activities like gardening, around the announced OLF schedule.
I think something else is going on. They were still flying at Ault Field! Hmmmmmmmm could it be the Rick Larsen visit Tuesday, and the navy doesn’t want a bunch of upset Coupeville folks at 6:30 at the Rec Hall? They will deny this, of course HOGWASH!
Please stop this absolutely unnecessary torture of the marine and land life of the San Juan Islands. This is causing extreme mental stress for the residents and driving tourism away. I have been a frequent visitor to the San Juan Island but plan to stay away until this activity stops!
Trying to fast track this set of actions is not going to fly. Too many citizens are concerned about the environmental impact and the loss of the quality of life in the area. Just slow down a minute…
never trust anything they say, as they lie a lot.
it is their way.
they don’t like my Prius, either. if you don’t
believe me, just read the Truthout article…
My wife and I are currently traveling to try to find a place to move due to jet noise at OLF. I must admit it is hard to find a nicer place to live than Whidbey, but the navy has left us with no choice. When we talk to people in our travels and mention why we are looking for a new home, to a person they express disbelief that the navy is allowed to conduct operations over people’s homes. We have also seen endless tracts of badlands that the navy could practice in and affect no one. What is wrong with our politicians and all the pro navy people that they deny the obvious? As usual it’s all about money. Maybe they should pay for moving costs!
I agree about plenty of wide open space close by in eastern washington,south whidbey island would be great for you 2, no jet nios and still be on the island
I’ve asked about moving the bouncing to Skagit Regional – closer to home for me and the bus route not held hostage by the state legislature & fiscal mismanagement….
Would require:
*Congressional support
*2nd EIS
*Purchase of aviation easements & eminent domain as COMPENSATION
*Settling litigation
*New construction of barriers and lighting and possibly more – requiring congressional approval
Take around 8-10 years and SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS.
Then you wonder why I propose eminent domain for Central Whidbey? ALL Americans who DEPEND on OLF can COMPENSATE folks who need to MOVE from OLF. Tell me where I’m wrong here….
DO IT so EVERYBODY can see.
So, more late night noise EXCEPT on Tuesday when they will stop mid afternoon. I guess they don’t want to interrupt their pet congressman while he is speaking.
Why are marine mammals protected there and we are not protected here by the National Environmental Protection Act (NEPA)? If the Navy followed the law here, we would be.
When the law was not followed there, people donated and there was a lawsuit.
There are no deep pockets in the 98239 zip code where the jets fly 250 feet overhead and the average price for a home is $250k, with a few waterfront homes included in that average.
There is no enforcement of NEPA except through a law suit. There is no better organization to manage donations toward legal action than COER. You have no idea how hard they work for nothing, and how much they put out for each donated dollar.
If you can’t donate, write Congress to set Navy limits. Go to https://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/stop-22-more-growlers/ and https://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/eis-deception/ to see why, and https://disclosuredeception.wordpress.com/contact-congress/ to see how.
This is so damaging to the quality of life. Especially for the orca pods that are struggling with the environment already.
NASWI Ault Field is doing FCLP here again today on runway 14 making a hard left turn and going right over our house and toward deception pass bridge the house is shaking.
we are having to leave our home once again today.
the NAVY/ NASWI is making our family homeless when we have a home to live in.
I made the same suggestion to the base!! They said that they didn’t have a pool due to fiscal constraints!!!! what a lie! how does a navy base not have a pool to train SAILORS how to swim!!! that would be like army base saying they had no land. that makes no since…..so they are obviously lying to me and don’t care about our complaints or suggestions. the lady went on to say that the only pool there was used to train all the pilots on the west coast how to swim. ALL LIES!! how could they think that we would belive that the ENTIRE amount of pilots on the west coast would have to use ONE POOL. AND THATS IF YOU BEILIVE THAT PILOTS NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SWIM!! THEY ARE FLYING (OVER MY HOUSE) NOT SWIMMING. The navy is SO SHADY!!
The headline complaint is going to require specific YouTube proof to the exact moment the Congressman said it. It’s serious.
But I’ve heard EA-18G noise lots. I love it, it’s A sound of freedom.
If you choose to remain under EA-18G flight patterns, no pity. If you’re kept there against your will, make that your next blog post how. Quit stirring the pot, start seasoning the soup.
Joe,
Watch the video on the home page of our web site. Larsen does admit to never coming here to witness the tragedy he is responsible for. Many homes are for sale, with no takers, so the people ARE held captive.
I can NOT believe this! This is ridiculous! Bomb practice in Crescent Harbor!!!! This is simply wrong. The environmental impact WILL BE EXTENSIVE in an area that is struggling in the 1st place! Please reconsider and don’t do this!!!! We must protect our earth. You don’t protect “the People” by destroying the earth!!!!!!! For God’s Sake STOP!!!!
The Navy is a juggernaut, which is a disturbing word defined as “a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution.” I think Larson was naive about the attention Navy officials gave him. He formed a relationship that gave him new power and beltway creds, which eventually brought the Growlers to Whidbey. In stereotypical governmental fashion, he has learned well how to speak disingenuously with citizens who have organized to protest after effects.
Bringing Growlers to Whidbey is a done deal. Navy officials have moved on to other, more pressing issues. That includes figuring out to beat the courts who have recently denied them war games that will harm a significant percentage of west coast marine mammals. I imagine Navy officials wondering among themselves, “what is it about the west coast, that they prefer trees and whales over a strong secure nation?”
Try to imagine what a fly must hear, on the wall in the room where Larson sits with these military guys. Perhaps he pleads with them to undue some small but meaningful part of what, together, they have brought to all of us who live here. If so, the juggernaut guys probably start looking at their watches. Knowing that he must face his constituents, he then asks them for crumbs that sound meaningful even if they are not. Together they all dream up hush houses, landing gear, and chevrons.
We’ve been a long time getting to this state of affairs. I remember how we were told that the North Vietnamese were going to steal the Chevrolets out of our garages (w help from the Chinese Communists, of course)–and that didn’t materialize, even though we were soundly defeated by barefoot, ill equipped Cong soldiers.
Since then, we have been on an upward trajectory toward more “defense” spending, more use of military to intervene and subvert governments and peoples–a pretty shameless record. And what Eisenhower warned us about: the Military Industrial Complex taking over our thinking and economy…well, that has all come true. Our DOD has become a Department of Perpetual War.
Trillions spent for defense, but we don’t feel secure. More weapons. More weapons. More expenditures. Now we are planning to “pivot to the east”–which means we need more enemies in order to terrorize our citizens through the media, as well as keep the defense industries (located in almost EVERY state right now) humming.
So we lose control of our budget; have already lost control of our democracy; have certainly become the most war-like nation on earth: a superpower that lives in fright, that seeks another enemy as a fix for its spending addiction, and on and on.
The last time we won a war was WWII. Since then, we have destroyed people, cultures and leaders, but have not secured a lasting peace anywhere we have been involved in. And what we learn is that the military is our least effective weapon when it comes to managing affairs. The least effective.
We do face an “existential” threat: but the threat comes from ourselves, from our foolish belief that the noise we hear from the Growlers is the “sound of freedom.”
It’s not.
Well put, Ed B, thank you for your comment!
Thank you COER. Thank you RainDagger. Wishing everyone on Whidbey true peace some day soon !!!
sure wish he had actually answered Ken’s question at the beginning of the video…that is the heart of the problem and the solution
I think too many people complained too loudly about jet noise and booed Congressman Growler, oops Congressman Larsen….
Like I said recently, lay low until the Draft EIS Study.
Cheers.
This seems like a very reasonable request. I hope to find it accepted.
Dear Captain Nortier,
Please provide your civilian neighbors with notice of flight cancellations. We live directly under the jets, just two to four hundred feet further away from the blasts of their engines than the crew on the deck of a carrier. Like the carrier crew, we limit our plans to the Navy Flight Schedule. We ensure we have noise protection ready, clear the deck, hunker down, and ensure the safety of bystanders – especially our kids, elderly, and pets. Or, we leave. Just like the crew, there things we do specifically because we know the planes will be flying.
Similarly, there are many things we would like to do if we knew the jets would not be flying. When flights are cancelled, the crew goes home or on to other activities. We cannot.
And at the end of the day, often delaying bedtime expecting sleep to be interrupted, we count our losses of what we could have done. You can imagine the range of emotions.
I am sure there are many reasons why providing this information would be difficult. Protecting the nation is a priority. But perhaps there is someone on staff that could take this on and develop a plan, working through the obstacles until it gets done. You have military personnel, active and retired, who live in these neighborhoods. They would benefit, too.
Whatever the effort required, the benefits to this community would be enormous. We need those precious hours and days and the freedom to do what we choose.
Please help us. We deserve the same days off from flight duty as the crews.
Myself and my family live in Oak harbor and would love to extend an invitation for Rick Larson to come and try to enjoy a barbeque at my son’s house on Wilson rd. northeast of the base. While the jets are flying…
Thank you Tom!
I attempted to publicly invite Congressman Growler to enjoy a OLF BBQ at OLF with OLFers like Growler Joe and cheer when the afterburners go on, but the Whidbey Examiner decided to censor the request.
You guys should realize with a lot of change of duty assignemnts, now is the time to sell your homes to Navy families and flee from this… “toxic sound freedom hazard” :-). Maybe I should ask Congressman Growler if he concurs?
Congressman Larsen has attended a Seahawks game with 130+ db sustained vice 112 db at 1/2 second peak (which he can view on the COER youtube video at the soccer park).
Our community of 220 families have 2x the FCLP volume as OLF – no issues other than the once-in-a-while annoyance with late flights. We all know what we signed up for – and all received the substantial noise discount. A few want their cake and eat it too – recommend those may consider going back to Seattle or San Francisco. We support the military on this island.
Scott Smith,
As you know, the sound level depends on where you live. You didn’t say where you live. You may live far enough away to dampen the sound greatly, so there is no comparison. If you live within several hundred yards of an active runway, things would be different. You and some others support the military on this island. Many People in Coupeville, Port Townsend, Port Angeles, Sequim, the San Juan Islands, Forks, LaConner, Camano Island support the military, but also want the Growlers gone from this region. We want the Growlers gone. We support the military, and want the base kept open, and the Growlers gone! The 1700 civilians (not 30,000) whose jobs depend on the military will still be working at the base long after the Growlers are gone.
I live in Dugualla Bay Heights – right near the end of runway 25. We see more flights than OLF. Not an issue. 220 families – no issues.
[We support the military, and want the base kept open, and the Growlers gone!]
Some COER members have stated to close the entire base.
If you remove the Growlers, the base will close – Navy does not keep an NAS half full.
If you close OLF, the base will close – no other major NAS has only 1 active runway.
We know what COER is doing behind the scenes – colluding with the Port Townsend elitists and select Govt Officials to close the base. Its clear as daylight.
Not to be callous or cruel but anybody want to discuss eminent domain? A new OLF would require a second EIS, and years of mitigation & construction before OLF Coupeville could be closed. Eminent domain would be one and done.
.
I would strongly encourage COER members to consider the options before you and make the fact-based correct decision or decisions rather than continue down the emotional path that has got you… nothing but grief and more jet noise.
When the Coupeville OLF was not used a while ago, that argument was laid to rest. The navy got along just fine without it. No need to build another OLF, just shut the Coupeville OLF. Move the Growlers elsewhere. No big deal, it has been done already. No money spent at all. No need to spend any.
As a person who never knew about the Navy jets before I moved to Camano Island, I was shocked one day when it sounded like a 747 flying into my home. However I now realize what I experience on a day to day basis is nothing compared to what people in Whidbey are harassed with each day. Thank you for making this video to show how close and how loud it really is for the citizens. My heart goes out to the family. Please make more videos of others and their daily experience. It really helped me understand how sad this situation really is for everyone involved. This type of training belongs in a desert, not above private citizens on a beautiful island.
Really you move to an island that is famous for it’s Navy base and plane’s. Then start crying like you’re two year’s old about noise. MOVE not just off the island. But out of this country. You all are cry baby’s that think they are entitled to everything you want. I hope your case gets thrown out.
I too live right under the flight path of the Growlers and I was beyond shocked at the level of noise these planes make. People talk disclosures but honestly there are no amount of descriptions that can accurately describe the level of noise or fear you experience when one of these planes come less than 200 or so feet over your roof. If I had to accurately describe it, it would be picture yourself in a city in the Middle East where a plane is coming at you and you are about to be bombed…that pretty much sums it up!
[…] ### Copies of the Motion for Preliminary Injunction and supporting declarations are available upon request and can be viewed on COER’s home page HERE . An eight-minute interview with a family impacted by the Growler operations can be viewed at: https://player
or on our Blog HERE. […]
When you moved to the area, didn’t you sign a document stating you were aware of loud noise of aircraft? I lived in Oak Harbor right in the flight path and I lived on a carrier underneath the flight deck – I think you folks are complaining about something you had control over when you moved to Whidbey Island / Oak Harbor.
What is the Navy protecting if it is willing to destroy the Olympic Nation Park and the quality of life of Americans living in the Pacific North West?
This is not a smart Navy training plan, this is the navy being arrogant, thoughtless and very destructive. We are all good Americans in this.. The Navy’s training plans in thiis instance is thoughtlessly destructive in this action.
What is the Navy protecting if it is willing to destroy the Olympic National Park and the quality of life for thoughs Americans that live here.
It sounds as if we live in a war zone… Is the American Navy at war with Americans living in the Pacific Northwest.
Congratulations on the sale of your home in Coupeville. Hopefully, you will have peace and enjoyment in your next location. You did the smart thing for
the welfare of all involved. It must have been sad leaving such a lovely house.
So let me get this straight – the Navy won’t speak to you, so you’re going to ask them to tell you the “technical specifications” of their electronic attack weaponry, the most classified field of warfare in the entire DOD? You’ll get nothing. No technical specs, because that information isn’t publicly releasable. You better find a pilot to give you classified information because otherwise, you’re asking the DOD to tell you classified information. Surely, your attorney told you the NEPA doesn’t grant you access to classified information and programs, right? Only Growler pilots and the folks who work on those weapons know how the systems work. You better call Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning. You can share the prison cell right next to them!
Oh, and by the way, this paper was written in 1998. Much cooler stuff out there now. Enjoy the noise in January. Just for you, I hope they use extra afterburner – and there’s nothing you can do about it.
And the Military Operations Areas on the Olympic Peninsula – have you heard the good news yet?? I have, and I can’t wait until you hear. You better enjoy the holidays, because you’re not gonna be happy!
You guys have got to be kidding – I read this entire paper. It’s about MICROWAVE technologies. That has nothing at all to do with the Growler. The jammers on the Growler operate in the Radio Wave part of the EM spectrum, the exact frequency range of every radar dish. That is not the same as the microwave part of the EM spectrum. The Growlers don’t jam things by heating them like a microwave. That’s simply not how jamming works. You’ve got the wrong topic completely and clearly no knowledge of physics. Jammers are quite simple really if you understand basic radar theory – which you don’t. Let me guess – someone told you this is how it works, right? Nice try, but they’re wrong.
Aaah, time to tell the aviation geeks in your life not just to attend OLF but shop in Coupeville. Many Coupeville businesses are PRO-NAVY and some of whom set up shop because Coupeville is seemingly more pro-small business than Oak Harbor. Heck, I wish I could live there in a studio apartment (get well Island Transit so I can).
.
(Note the source, folks. Boycott’s over.)
“Folks, our job is to kill people and break their toys,” You people really don’t get it. That’s exactly true, and the Navy’s warriors do exactly that, quite well in fact. Growler pilots are the elite of the elite warriors, just like SEALs. The job is to kill the enemy and break their stuff. If you thought something different, then you are nuts. Sorry if it offends your delicate sensitivity, but we don’t care. The warrior class is the highest of all callings, and it’s good that the Admirals remember to call it like it is. We’re not in the business of making you smile with little flowers and sunshine sprinkles. This is the business of war and the profession of arms, for which you are not suited. Growler pilots are elite warriors who aggressively destroy their enemies. And we’re proud of them for it!
Hope you guys enjoyed the SuperBowl flyover by one of our very own beloved Growler pilots. And no, zero permission from civilians required. We’re bringing back the Whidbey Island Airshow this year, which is going to be great. All kinds of fighter jets to look at. One of the Electronic Attack Squadrons is going to have a full “Demo” team. Isn’t that great news?
Best news I’ve heard in a long time Amy. Praise to an almighty and magnificent G*d who has blessed America with NAS Whidbey Island, Captain Mike Nortier and the many hard-working souls who keep our nation safe, free and strong.